Who’s In, Who’s Out — A 3,000-Year-Old Debate

Welcome to Madlik. My name is Geoffrey Stern, and at Madlik, we light a spark or shed some late on a Jewish text or tradition. Along with Rabbi Adam Mintz, we host Madlik Disruptive Torah on your favorite podcast platform. And now on YouTube and Substack. We also publish a source sheet on Sefaria, and a link is included in the show Notes. This week, we read Parashat Bo. Last week he explored the essence of the Mussar movement and mentioned in passing the magic of Hasidism, joy, and radical inclusion. This week, we’ll explore the source of inclusion in the Exodus story, but we’ll start with a seminal Hasidic story. So, Rabbi Adam, welcome back. You know, we’re starting to get a little autobiographical here. You always get to talk about how you know the guests. Well, I must say that besides Mussar, Hasidism was a big impact on my life. And I think the first book that I read that really got me interested in Judaism was a book by Martin Buber, very thin, called The Ten Rungs. But then I read Hasidic tales, and I read the Legend of the BAAL Shem. And at the beginning of the book, The BAAL Shem, he writes in his introduction that in his sense, what brought all of the stories, what the magic of Hasidism was. And he writes, no prayer is stronger in grace and penetrates in more direct flight through all the worlds of heaven than those of the simple man who does not know anything to say and only knows to offer God the unbroken promptings of his heart. God receives them as a king receives the singing of a nightingale in his gardens at twilight. A singing that sounds sweeter to him than the homage of the princes in his throne room. The Hasidic legend cannot give enough examples of the favor that shines on the undivided person and of the power of his service. And then he goes and tells a really famous story. I knew this story. Everybody knows the story, but I didn’t realize it was a. He brought it as a template. And it’s a story of a simple boy on Yom Kippur who says to his father as they walk into synagogue for Kol Nidre, I have a whistle and I want to blow the whistle. And his father hushes him. And then they come for Shacharit, and then they come for Musaf, and then they come for Mincha. And finally they’re at Neelah. And as you can imagine, the Hasidim are praying. They’re all dressed in white. The crescendo is being reached. And he turns to his dad and he pulls the whistle out of his pocket and he blows it. And everybody turns around and looks at him as though he has done the most terrible thing. All stood startled and bewildered. But the BAAL Shem raised himself above them and spoke. The judgment is suspended and wrath is dispelled from the face of the earth. So what he said is, the simple whistle of this peasant child was more pure and more powerful than the princes in his throne room. And I thought we’d start with that because we really are talking today about inclusion and exclusion. You’ve clearly heard that story before. Did you read the story before? The legends of the BAAL Shem Tov.

Adam Mintz [00:04:54]:
Yeah. I mean, that story is older than Hasidim, but it’s a great. It says so much, that story. Good. This is a great topic.

Geoffrey Stern [00:05:03]:
Okay, so we are in Exodus in Shemot, Exodus 10:8. So Moses and Aaron were brought back to Pharaoh. They were fetched. And he said to them, Pharaoh said to them, go worship your God. Who are the ones to go? He says, Mi, v’Mi Haholchim? Moses replied, we will all go, regardless of social station. Actually, the Hebrew says. He really says, our children and our daughters will go. But the translation of the jps, and we’ll get to that in a second, actually puts this already a social stratosphere into it. And it says, regardless of social station, we will go with our sons and daughters, our flocks and herds, for we must observe God’s festival. But he said to them. So Pharaoh turns to them and says, God be with you. The same as I mean to let your dependence go with you. Clearly you are bent on mischief. So Pharaoh is, he’s not a fool. He goes, if you’re going to worship your God, you don’t need to take the women and the children. They, they don’t count at a minyan. He said, no, your gentlemen go and worship. So here too, the jps and we’re going to get to the logic and wisdom of this translation. But in the Hebrew it says, it doesn’t say your gentleman, it says, hagvarim will go with you and worship, since that is all that you want. And they were expelled from Pharaoh’s presence. So fascinating how the translation really tries to all of us sudden put into this a sense of Pharaoh is letting the gvarim, the ones that matter, those that have strength. And it also tries to put into regardless of social station. So let’s look at it for a second. First of all, I think the most amazing little comment is from Everett Fox and he says the answer is rhythmical or almost ritual. You know, Rabbi, when we talk about everybody as part of this thing, what is the expression that we use that ends with the taf? It says ha’ anashem v’ nashim v’taf. That is almost a mantra of Judaism that we include the elder men, the elder women, and the taf and the children. And I think that Everett Fox captures it by saying it almost sounds rhythmical and like a ritual. I was struck that.

Adam Mintz [00:07:55]:
That’s very good. That’s very creative. Good.

Geoffrey Stern [00:07:58]:
So another commentary that I looked at, he picks on this word that JPS translates as gentleman. The Hebrew says hagvarim. He says, unlike in the writings of the prophets, this term men, gevarim, as distinct from anashim, is quite rare in the Torah. Yet it appears twice in our parasha. It may be intended to point to a very thin stratum of an elite few, not merely men, but gentlemen or Torah elites who regard the worship of the Lord as their private preserve and are reluctant to allow others to share in it. I mean, the commentators are really digging in here. It could have been so easy, almost knee jerk to say this is about Moses trying to pull a fast one and Pharaoh calling him and says, what do you need everybody to go for?

Adam Mintz [00:08:54]:
Right. Well, that’s super interesting because you’re right, you don’t need to translate gvarim as being a special group. But he feels that that kind of enhances the story. Good.

Geoffrey Stern [00:09:06]:
So now we’re going to the Torah, a woman’s commentary, and it says regardless of social station. So it is taking the JPS translation. It says literally with our underlings and with our elders. Or alternatively you could translate it with our youths and with our old folks. The Hebrew terms can refer either to socioeconomic status or to age. And so I think everybody, the sense of na’ar is a. We normally think of a na’ar as a child. If you say something silly in the yeshiva, they might call you a na’ar.

Adam Mintz [00:09:45]:
That’s by the way, that’s a Yiddish ism. The word na’ar in Yiddish means a fool. You know that because the word narishkite means foolishness, perfect, which obviously comes from the Hebrew, but it’s a Yiddish word.

Geoffrey Stern [00:09:59]:
Okay, yeah, but I think our knee jerk reaction would have been this is an ageism. Nar is youth. I think in benching, we say Na’ar Hayiti gam zekaniti. It’s the opposite of being aged. But if you look into the dictionary that is provided in Sefaria, it also refers to a retainer, a servant. So. So again, if you’re talking the language of class and status and you’re retranslating our pesukim, you could say that Moses returns to Pharaoh and says, no, no, no, stop with the gevarim. Those that have status, we’re talking about even their servants, even their those who to who serve them. So it really is quite, quite amazing. I think in modern Hebrew, the word Mi u’Mi portion who and who. If you want to give a list of who’s who in the Knesset or who’s who in Israel, it’s Mi uMi b’ yisrael Knesset. So we almost take. Again, this sense is used in the nomenclature as who’s who, who’s on the list.

Adam Mintz [00:11:11]:
I think that the phrase Mi uMi HaHolchim is also kind of a colloquial phrase. You want to know who’s coming along, who’s invited to the party. Sometimes people are coming for Shabbos. I say to Sharon, Mi uMi Haholchim means who, who’s coming? It’s taken from this verse.

Geoffrey Stern [00:11:29]:
It is. And I must say I was so confident that if I did a Google search and I said, Mi uMi HaHolchim in Israeli literature, in Yiddish literature, I would have come up with more hits. But I think you have the same feeling that I do. It really is an expression.

Adam Mintz [00:11:48]:
It’s gotta be.

Geoffrey Stern [00:11:49]:
It’s who, who’s invited, who’s included. So just continuing a little bit further as we look at the verses themselves, the Ramban says, but who are they that shall go? Pharaoh desired that their leaders, elders and officers should go, men that are pointed out by name. Moses answered him that also the sons and daughters will go. For we must hold a feast unto the eternal. And it is mandatory upon all of us to take part in the feast. So really, the Ramban says people who have a name, the real intelligentsia. I love that he really drives the point home. And I love the fact that he now starts. It started me thinking, rabbi, this is the first and the Exodus. What is the big point that Moses is making? He goes, we want to go out and celebrate. We want to have a chag. The commentaries can’t even agree what the chag is it clearly.

Adam Mintz [00:12:57]:
That’s funny. That’s correct.

Geoffrey Stern [00:12:58]:
Today is Rosh Chodesh as we record. Maybe it was Rosh chodesh. The point is, we Jews cannot celebrate without our families. It would be unheard of.

Adam Mintz [00:13:09]:
Very good. That’s very. Yeah, A lot of this comes from. That’s a great Ramban.

Geoffrey Stern [00:13:16]:
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Adam Mintz [00:15:51]:
Yeah, that’s super interesting. Yeah, I mean, the whole thing is interesting. The idea that they’ll be arguing about who goes out. Right.

Geoffrey Stern [00:16:00]:
How.

Adam Mintz [00:16:01]:
How religion is observed, the idea that maybe religion is only observed by the elders, it’s such a foreign idea to us. Right. The idea that only Zikanenu, only the elders, only the important people will worship God is such a foreign idea. But clearly that’s what Pharoah and Moshe are arguing about.

Geoffrey Stern [00:16:23]:
It is. And clearly, look, we have remnants in our Torah, the priestly caste. It was there. This wasn’t a clear, clean break. When Ramban says, this is not about people called by name, he is referring to verses in our Torah where the nasi’im, the princes, are paraded, and they are people of name, of course. So I think what’s fascinating to me is you could very easily say that we’re doing a drash today, that all we’re doing is saying mi v’miholchim. It’s clear. The pashut P’shat, the obvious interpretation is here. The negotiation. Negotiations begin. And Pharaoh says, I want to let you go. Now let’s discuss the details. Who’s going to go? And Moses tries to pull a fast one and say, we all have to go. And there. And that’s what it all is. But I think, at least looking at it through the lens of the commentaries, who literally pick out for us, and I think they make a case about the unique use of the word gvarim, that clearly we’re not just talking about people here or about naarim. I. I think you really can make a case, Rabbi, that this is truly an argument about a different gestalt, a different view of what it means to who is important. When Pharaoh thinks he’s thinking about princes, when Moses is thinking he’s thinking about the masses. “Ad Taff”. Until the smallest.

Adam Mintz [00:18:03]:
So, and I’m saying it’s not. It’s who’s important and who’s important in religion. Because what they’re arguing about is who’s gonna worship God, who’s gonna be part of the religious festival. Good. All fascinating.

Geoffrey Stern [00:18:16]:
So I found two articles that I’m gonna quote at length. They are modern, contemporary articles written. The first one we’re gonna quote is by Rabbi Moshe Aberman and he’s from Yeshiva Haretzion. This is Rabbi Lichtenstein. This is a major place. And he is taking the argument for us. And he says, Moses states before Pharaoh that for the purpose of worshiping God, all of Israel must participate. Pharaoh, however, responds that worship is carried out by the men, the leaders of the people and the heads of families. And therefore there is no need for women and children. Moses position is that in Judaism, every person as such stands in a personal relationship before the Holy One. Blessed be heaven. In light of this, each and every individual must be partner in the experience of worship. This position is reflected and firmly grounded in several places in the Torah. So the reason I found this so I think impactful was that he’s going to make an argument that what we’re discussing now shows its face later. This was not a kind of a unit, an isolated instance that we’re kind of projecting and reading into it. So the first example that he brings is in Deuteronomy 31:12. And it’s the Mitzvah of Hakel, of gathering the people together. What was it? Was it every seven years?

Adam Mintz [00:19:51]:
Yes, the at the end of the Shmita year, the sukkos after the Shmita year.

Geoffrey Stern [00:19:56]:
So assemble the people, says the Torah, the men, the women and the little ones. Anushim v Nasim vataf. So this is the expression that we use even in say, when we say everybody’s invited. It’s. This is not. It’s co ed and it’s co generational. It’s everybody and it says, your sojourner, the gear, who is within your gates, in order that they may hearken, in order that they may learn and have awe for God, your God, and take care to observe all the words of this instruction. So what this Rabbi Moshe Aberman is saying is this is not an isolated instance and we are not looking at a back and forth posturing of Moses and Pharaoh. This is essential to the revolution, to the. The program, so to speak.

Adam Mintz [00:20:49]:
Well, and that it’s a change from the Egyptians. It’s different than from what everybody else did.

Geoffrey Stern [00:20:56]:
It’s radical. It’s a radical break. Everyone participates, men, women, children, even residents, aliens, adds this rabbi. Similarly, he continues, at the time of entering the covenant in the plains of Moab, on the eve of Israel’s entry into the land, it is stated now we’re quoting Deuteronomy 29. You stand this day, all of you, before God, your God, your tribal heads, your elders and your officials, every householder in Israel, your children, your wives, even the stranger within your camp. From wood chopper to water drawer. We spent a whole episode on this.

Adam Mintz [00:21:38]:
Talk about what that means, but again.

Geoffrey Stern [00:21:40]:
That it brings it into the context of what Moses is arguing with Pharaoh to me made it very profound, amazing, really good. The last thing that he begins is, you know, and again, I had never really thought this before, and I said it a second ago, that here we are, we’re leading a revolution. And ultimately, what does Moses post on the, on the doorpost in terms of what he’s asking from Pharaoh? He’s asking Pharaoh, we need to celebrate, to have a chag. I just thought, when I thought about it for a second, I thought that also was an amazing statement. So in Deuteronomy 16:14, it says, you shall rejoice in your festival, tvisamachat b’chagecha, who? with your son and daughter, your male and female slave, the family of the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless and the widow in your communities. And this to me really tied what Moses was demanding of Pharaoh and the Exodus and the actual Halachot that came out as a result that the only way that the Israelites can celebrate. And by the way, the word hag is related to the Arabic word hajj. This it’s with everybody. It is with everybody. This was a revolution that getting back back to that wonderful story we started with Buber that everybody to the whistleblower has to be a part of or you can’t do it right now.

Adam Mintz [00:23:19]:
I think the hajj, though to Mecca is only the men, right?

Geoffrey Stern [00:23:23]:
Well, they translated the word, but maybe not the concept, right?

Adam Mintz [00:23:27]:
I think so.

Geoffrey Stern [00:23:27]:
I don’t know.

Adam Mintz [00:23:27]:
You have to study. You have to study the Muslim halacha.

Geoffrey Stern [00:23:31]:
I think women go too, but definitely to me it was just amazing. So there is another scholar who quotes and he, believe it or not, this is almost like a teshuvah, a responsa, where a woman, an elderly woman, dedicates something to a synagogue in modern day in Jerusalem, and the rabbis of the synagogue refused to take it from a woman. And so this rabbi, his name is Ovadia, he’s actually a professor also Aviad Hakouin. He writes the following interpretation based on, in part on our pursuit. He says one of the most striking features of the story of the exodus from Egypt is inclusion, not exclusion. All the children of Israel are gathered beneath the wings of the worship of the Lord according to Pharaoh’s approach, echoes of which are often heard even in many circles of our own day. The worship of the Lord and entry into his sanctuary are an exclusive matter, by invitation only, for men only. The bitter fruit of the tree of exclusion. And this is all in Hebrew. I just translated it. Go worship the Lord your God. Who and who are going? Quoting our verse here, Pharaoh gives voice to his distorted conception of religion and those who practice it. If the purpose of leaving Egypt is to worship of the Lord, then this rite belongs only to a select few rabbis, priests, religious functionaries, and Anshei Shlome, the insiders. Pharaoh asks Moses to prepare for him a list of the who and who the important people demanded, worthy of participating in the act of religious worship. He wants the event to be exclusive, by invitation only, just as the Egyptians conduct their own ceremonies. I love the way he’s rephrasing it.

Adam Mintz [00:25:36]:
Almost into modern by invitation only part.

Geoffrey Stern [00:25:41]:
So according to Pharaoh and those who follow in his path, he’s. He’s basically pointing his finger at these, these rabbis. He wouldn’t accept. The worship of the Lord is gendered and sectorial matter. Against this background Pharaoh’s command in Exodus 10:11 becomes all the more striking and intelligible. Go then you men, and worship the Lord, for that is what you seek. So this was the time that Gevarim was used. Indeed, Moses, our teacher’s inclusive model does not grant rights alone. It also creates obligations. Those who bear the Torah and serve as guides must find solutions within the framework of Halachah to the exclusion of women from the various Batim houses. So he is issuing, based on our little narrative and dialogue, a challenge to the halachic authorities of today that they need to find a way of including everybody into a larger tent.

Adam Mintz [00:26:49]:
Great. That. That’s the question about a woman donating something. And he goes back to this story. Who would have thought such a thing?

Geoffrey Stern [00:26:57]:
It’s just. It’s just wonderful. I have to also say, I believe we lost a great leader. The OU. Was it. Was it Moshe Hauer? Rabbi. What was his name?

Adam Mintz [00:27:09]:
Yeah, Moshe Hauer.

Geoffrey Stern [00:27:12]:
He also has a article written with the. The name of the article is who and who will Go? And he uses it, interestingly, as an excuse to help to define who’s included. What he talks about is Rabbi Saloveitchik and many of the Orthodox permitted it almost obligated the Orthodox to participate in anything that was communal, even though maybe that was not the case when it came to theology or discussions of Torah.

Adam Mintz [00:27:46]:
With other denominations, with the non Orthodox.

Geoffrey Stern [00:27:49]:
Right, with the non Orthodox. And he actually uses the article as a way to say, but there are lines. And. And what he talks about is, you know, when certain people go and they don’t support the people living in Israel, they’ve crossed a line. But after he passed away to a T Rabbi, every Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, secular leader that had anything to do with him all literally talked about his inclusiveness, that he walked. He walked the walk. So it’s fascinating that he wrote that. I think there’s too much when we discuss the Exodus, whereas too much we still have, which is the exclusionary. There’s a very tiny little posuk that says when the Jews left, they went hamushim armed. And the amount of people that quote a tiny midrash that is isolated, that only a fifth of the Israelites left Egypt, boggles the imagination. It boggles the imagination. The people that quote the midrash that says, we survived because we didn’t change our garb and we didn’t change our.

Adam Mintz [00:29:14]:
Language, our names and our language.

Geoffrey Stern [00:29:16]:
There’s too much of that and not enough of the inclusion part that everybody know what language they spoke, no, what matter what clothing they wore, were invited in this amazing activity Exodus. And I think that while I will characterize those midrashim that talk about who were left behind and who were excluded as isolated, what we’ve tried to show today, and I think we have a leg to stand on, is that me u miholchim. Who and who is going as an inclusive statement is actually baked into the halacha, later baked into the Torah. And I think the stories what Martin Buber identified in the Hasidic movement, if you recall, we had the first rabbi, the gay rabbi, and we asked him, what is the future? He said, “be like Chabad”. And when we asked him, what do you mean? He goes, chabad accepts everybody. I think the walking rules that we have from this week’s Parasha is inclusion is what it’s all about.

Adam Mintz [00:30:30]:
About. Amazing. What a great topic. Shabbat Shalom, everybody. We look forward next week to crossing the Red Sea with all of you. Shabbat Shalom.

Geoffrey Stern [00:30:40]:
Shabbat Shalom. Everybody is welcome. And by the way, if you ever listen to the podcast and you want to give us a star or say something nice, go ahead and do it. Shabbat Shalom. See you all next week.