Until Shiloh Comes

So welcome, Rabbi. Usually, before we start, we go over, what did you do in your week? Or in this case, what did you do over the Christmas vacation? But I saved that for the podcast. Because I don’t know about you, Rabbi, but when I was in the yeshiva, on Christmas night and Christmas day, we didn’t learn Torah.

We didn’t want to give z’chut. We didn’t want to give credence, we didn’t want to give brownie points to Jesus, to Christianity, and learn on that day. So there were some that would actually tear the toilet paper for the rest of the year for Shabbat. Was called Nitul Nacht.

1:05   Rabbi Adma Mintz That’s funny, right?

GS: And it was called Nital Nach… what does that mean?

AM Nobody knows. I want to tell you something. Nobody knows where that phrase comes from But that’s what it’s called. Christmas Eve is called nitl nacht.

GS So I got an email a week or two before Christmas from an organization called Torah on the Move. Is that what it is? Torah in Motion. And you are one of their scholars. I am. They.

AM I am. They had an amazing Christmas Day Program

GS So it’s called a Yom Iyun, a day of focus and depth, and it was called Judaism Encounters the World, December 25th online Yom Iyun. So yours truly paid, I made a contribution, and I had nothing else to do on Christmas morning, so there was no tree, there were no presents to unwrap, so I went on to five hours of this Yom Iyun.

AM Wow, you’re amazing. Okay.

3:02 So tonight’s podcast is really influenced by what I learned on that Yom Iyun. Most of it was about Judeo-Christian relationships. The first talk was from a rabbi, Dr. Yaakov Negan, who is a rabbi and a doctor, but he’s a director of Ohr Torah Stones Institute for Interfaith Dialogue in Beit Midrash. I’ve actually met him.

AM He grew up on the Upper West Side. He’s a fascinating guy, isn’t he?

GS He is, and he received ordination from REITS, which is Yeshiva University, and a Ph.D. In Jewish philosophy from the Hebrew University, and he is an expert on Jewish-Muslim relationships. And I’m actually going to play a little snippet from his introduction, because even though the most of what we’re going to talk about is Christian-Jewish relationships and how it affects the text of our Pasha and also Bereshit, I think he said something that so resonates with me that I want to play it, and I want to get your response to it.

So here we go

If religion is part of the problem, Religion, therefore, must be part of the solutions in our conflicts. Now, the first part is undeniable. The genocidal, anti-Semitic atrocities of the Hamas are done in the name of religion. They even called their attack the Al-Aqsa flood. So religion being part of the problem, I think there’s a consensus about that. That second step, therefore religion should be part of any solution, that might be more controversial. John Lennon, for example, thought the way to get world peace is by imagining no nations and no religion too.

4:24   Rabbi Dr. Yakov Nagen  If religion is part of the problem, Religion, therefore, must be part of the solutions in our conflicts. Now, the first part is undeniable. The genocidal, anti-Semitic atrocities of the Hamas are done in the name of religion. They even called their attack the Al-Aqsa flood. So, religion being part of the problem, I think there’s a consensus about that. That second step, therefore religion should be part of any solution, that might be more controversial. John Lennon, for example, thought the way to get world peace is by imagining no nations and no religion too.

Religion is making so much problems, so let’s just get rid of it. But the problem is, first of all… Religion and identity are so fundamental, you can’t just imagine them to go away. They’re a reality. You have to deal with them.

GS I have to say, I mean, Rabbi, you know, I am not a, I wouldn’t consider myself a halachic Jew. But one of, I believe that religion, like love, like aesthetics, is part and parcel of the human psyche (condition). And that it can never be ignored, lest of all by me. I love it. I love the way that man, women, humankind learns, interacts, and figures out who we are based on how we understand our relationship with something spiritual. But I also believe, As this rabbi just said, that if I was getting a major in political science, if I was going into diplomacy, I think that every diplomat should have a minor in religion.

Because it’s so clear to me that whatever you call it, whether it’s something that we should try to run away from, or it’s, as I believe, it’s part of our human nature, you can’t ignore religion, and it is such, in the words of the Talmud, it is a som ha-chayim, or it’s a som ha-mavet. It is either a drug for good or it’s a drug for death. And that’s one of the things that drives me in my learning on a regular basis, because I really believe that religion and our religion, it’s a responsibility.

It’s important. It has outcomes, and it affects the world. Is that how you read what he just said? I mean, do you agree?

7:19 AM Absolutely. Read it. I mean, you know, he quotes John Lennon, imagine no religion. But, you know, the world wouldn’t be better with no religion. Like you said, religion makes us who we are, whatever our religion is. And, you know, the question is, he said it, how can religion be part of the solution? And that’s a hard thing because to respect someone else’s religion is very, very difficult. You know, to, to, to respect their politics, to say that a group is on a land and therefore that’s their land and they can’t be thrown out of their land, that’s pragmatic.

But to accept other people’s religion, to imagine that there are different truths, that’s a very difficult thing for people.

GS So one of the lectures that was during this day of learning was from Rabbi Dr. Martin Lakshin, and the subject of the lecture was Christian Influences on Jewish Biblical Interpretation. And as someone who has a weekly Parsha podcast, I was focused on, was he going to use any verses from our Parsha? And lo and behold, he did. And this is a scholar who literally, as per his title, He, you know, I have many times, we have many times, as we’ve studied text, we don’t have any parameters. If there is a Christian scholar, whether it’s Kierkegaard or whoever, that says something fascinating about a verse or a concept that we’re dealing with, It could be a Muslim.

We’ve dealt with very Muslim how the Koran deals with the Akedah and other things. We love the fact that our tradition, our scripture, is studied by millions, I would say billions of people. But the purpose of his talk was that actually there are Christian influences on great Jewish scholars. So that’s how we get to our parasha. We’re in Genesis 49. As I said in the intro, this is the last parasha in the book of Genesis. And Jacob called his sons and said, Come together, that I may tell you what is to befall you in the days.

The Enigmatic Reference to Shiloh

10:01 GS Assemble and hearken, the sons of Jacob, hearken to Israel your father. And he blesses Reuben, who was his firstborn. And then he blesses Shimon and Levi. And then in verse nine, he talks talking about Judah, who we all know the tribe of Judah is where King David came from, where the Messiah is understood to come from So in verse nine, it says, Judah is a lion’s whelp. Oh, pray my son, have you grown? He crouches, lies down like a lion. This is the Lion of Judah. Like a lioness, who dares rouse him?

Then in verse 10 it says, the scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet. So that tribute shall come to him, until he comes to Shiloh, and the homage of peoples be his.” So all of a sudden, it seems that everybody is interested in what this enigmatic reference is, until he comes to Shiloh. And that is the title of today’s class. So, Rashi says, until the King Messiah will come, who will be the kingdom? And thus too, Rashi continues, does Onkelos render it.

A Midrashi interpretation is Shiloh is the same as Shai? Lo, a present unto him. The bottom line is it’s one of the many verses that we have where the translation is not altogether clear. We have an enigmatic reference to a word named Shiloh, and Rashi references the Messiah.

AM Just, we have to say one thing, this is poetry, because these are the blessings that Jacob gives to his son. So, you’re right, often in the Torah we don’t know what something means, but when it’s poetry, in every language, you know, poetry always means something beyond what the words themselves mean.

GS Absolutely. And this particular piece of poetry was captured by the Abraham religions. So if you look at the Latin Vulgate, it says, “‘The scepter shall not be taken away from Judah, nor a ruler from his fire, till he comes that is to be sent.’ So it thinks of Shiloh, maybe as there was a—the scribe missed a Shilach instead of a Shiloh, and he that is to be sent. According to Muslims, they believe that Muhammad is called Shiloh. So lo and behold….

AM Based on this verse!

GS Yes, Absolutely! We have a verse that all three quote-unquote Abrahamic religions are looking at as a prophecy for their particular Savior. Now, the scholar that I quoted, this Rabbi Dr. Martin Lakshin, uses this as an example. His belief, he is a scholar in the Rashbam. The Rashbam was the grandson of Rashi, correct? Correct. Yeah. So he, in his lecture, tried to show where the Rashbam was influenced, was aware, interacted, communicated, engaged with Christian scholarship. So, in this particular pasuk, the Rashbam says, the exegesis refutes the view of the heretics, especially that of the Christians, who claim that shiloh, spelt here with a hey at the end, and the city known as Shiloh, spelt in the scripture as Shiloh with a vav, as in Samuel, are not the same.

The one same verse. The point that needs to be made is that the Rashbam is engaged in what typically we would call polemic, which is that he’s aware of Christian commentaries on this verse, and he takes pains to explain why they are wrong. But if you want to talk about the beginning of a conversation, the conversation has started. He says Yakov, as opposed to the view of the Christians, did not elevate the position of Yehuda to that of being a savior, beginning at this point in time, but he predicted Block go on and on.

He brings this verse initially to show that the rash Bam is engaged with christian interpretations, and he brings, actually, two other verses from our apasha that talk about how literally the Rashbam engaged both with Christians and, believe it or not, with his grandfather. One day, my grandchildren will listen to this podcast and they will learn that the Rush bomb talked Tora very, not deferentially, with his grandfather. He says uh in uh forty nine nine that uh it says that, and my son Yehudah is saying that after you have risen from dealing with the spoils No enemy will dare.

He says, all those who understood Yaakov, referring to the sale of Joseph in this verse, do not understand the sentence structure, nor paid attention to the tone signs. He is referring to his grandfather.

AM To Rashi, yeah, that’s funny.

GS In 49.9 it says, from the prey literally tearing, from the deed which I suspected you when I said, Joseph is torn to pieces. He says again, he refers to Rashi and says a difference. So, the one thing that this scholar on Rashbam establishes is that number one, that the Rashbam was aware of other interpretations of the Torah, and two, was not afraid to not only disagree with his grandfather, but to stake his own path. And I’ve included in the source sheet literally screenshots of the slideshow that…

17:50 AM Yeah, It’s a great slideshow. That’s a great addition.

GS …that this Martin Lachschin sent us. And, you know, Rosh Bam was 1080 to 1160, and there was a seminary called the Victrines, And he goes at great lengths to show that it’s clear that they were influenced by the Rashbam, and the Rashbam was influenced by them. And the source that he brings, since we’re ending Genesis, is the story of the three angels that come to Abraham, if you recall, before Sarah and Abraham realize that they can have a child, before the angels go to Sodom and talk about the destruction.

And all of the Jewish commentaries are challenged by the fact that the verses start in Genesis 18, by God appeared to him. So, God is talking to Abraham, and three men who were angels come to him. And then he said to the chief angels, And it goes on and on. And Rabbi, you and I, we did a whole session on Ha Nat, or Him on welcoming the guests, because the rabbis learned from here, how can you be talking to God and then turn to three men or three angels that are coming and tend to their needs. And the Midrash says this is a problem, but it teaches us a profound lesson, which is that accepting and welcoming guests is like being makabel the shechina.

But like any great Midrash, what it is doing is it’s addressing a problem. And the Rashbam looks at this problem And he makes a radical, an absolute radical interpretation, which is that there were three angels, and the first angel was called Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh. And he stayed with Abraham, and the other two angels left. And the reason why it is so radical is obviously we’re talking about three, which reminds us of the Trinity, and Justin Martyr talks about the first angel was an insight or a reflection of God who stayed with Abraham, and the other two were reflections of God who left.

The point that this scholar made was that the Rashbam may have been influenced or may have seen things in a similar fashion and was not off-put, by the interpretations of Christian scholars who were studying the same text, and who came to a different solution. It wasn’t so much that we Jews leave our God to be accepting of guests. Rather, God was perceived in three ways. And his point was, and this was the point of ultimately of his whole discussion, was that we can’t always look at when Jewish scholars quote Christian scholars, it’s not always polemics.

Perspectives on Interfaith Conversations

21:39 GS Sometimes it’s a conversation, and sometimes as two peoples who are infatuated and are focused on the same text, we can learn from each other.

AM Again, we’ll take each little piece, but on the whole, and I’m sure he talked about this, it’s amazing to think about France in the 1100s, when the Rashbam lived and when Rashi lived, the period that he’s talking about. Because that’s during the Crusades. That was a time when Christians would go into Jewish communities, Jewish towns, and they would literally put a knife to the Jews’ throat and say, convert to Judaism or we’re going to kill you. So, on one hand, that’s going on, but literally parallel to that, like parallel train tracks, we have conversations going on in the academies between Rashbam and the Christian scholars of Bible.

So it’s really something amazing just to imagine that both of these things are happening at the same time. And the truth is, if we’re allowed to take it to modern times, you know, you talk today about all the problems in America and American universities and anti-Semitism and all the terrible things, and then you read articles and things that are going on and conversations and classes that are going on and how much, you know, how much knowledge is being exchanged and how much Jewish knowledge is being exchanged.

You have to understand that sometimes these things can go as parallel train tracks. The fact that there’s bad things happening doesn’t prevent the good things from happening.

23:23 GS I love the fact that you put it into context, and we are going to end tonight with the ending of Rabbi Yaakov Nagin, who started our conversation about exactly what you’re discussing, which is even though these terrible moments in Jewish-Muslim relationships, there is conversations going on. So I love that you put it into context. But I want to give you the whole spectrum of what I experienced on Christmas with this Yom Ha’iyyun. There is a very primal, pivotal, seminal thinker, Rabbi Menachum HaMeiri.

Who is a game-changer in relationship to relationships with Christianity and Islam. And he’s quoted, but he was – I renewed my interest in him, and Menachem Hameiri has something to say about every time in the Bible that it talks about avada zara. Which at the end of the day is strange worship, or avodat kochavim, worship of the stars. And what he says, and he’s not totally unique, Maimonides says similar things, but nonetheless he is pivotal and a paradigm changer in what he says, is gedurim b’darchei hadatot.

He establishes a category, and he says that if non-Jews have a religion that is moral and that respects human life and the fact that we are all created in the image of God, that is the most important thing, not the particular variations of how they worship or what they worship, or their rituals. And so much of Jewish halacha and Jewish theology prior to him, and even after him, had been focused on, is there an idol? Is there something that looks like a human being in Christianity? What is the focus of their worship?

And he really was a paradigm changer. And he said that really what is important in distinguishing between the them and the us, between the monotheists and those who in the Bible are characterized as idol worshipers, has less to do with theology and more to do with the way of living in terms of respecting humanity and respecting that humanity is created in the image of God. And one of the speakers, to my absolute wonder and surprise, quoted and says that Rabbi Riskin is one of The foremost scholars who has put forward this, and he has, and it’s in the source sheet, says, and therefore, while we can say that Christianity, and we can say that Islam, in their most classical interpretation, are totally within the realm of Meiri’s understanding of what an acceptable monotheistic religion is, once they cross the border and start killing people and start engaging in terrorism and start lacking that respect for human existence, that’s when you draw the line.

And it just seemed to me it was so important for our understanding today about who our allies are, who our friends are, where there is potential to move forward, and where the lines are that we can pass.

27:45 AM I couldn’t agree more. Again, you know, it’s so amazing to take that class of Professor Lukshin and, you know, about Rashbam in the 1100s, and to say that that’s exactly what we’re talking about today, you know, during this difficult time in Israel. That’s an amazing thing, isn’t it? But that’s, you talked about, you know, the power of religion. That’s the power of religion. It’s above time. It’s relevant always. And it’s a powerful fort that’s.

GS The key. So the Meiri I had heard of before. What I had not heard of before was the following Rav Yaakov Emdin. So in Pirkei Avot, Ethics of the Father, Chapter 4.11, Rabbi Yochanan Sandler said, Every assembly, a kol knisiah, that is for the sake of heaven, will in the end endure, and every assembly which is not for the sake of heaven will not endure in the end. So, actually, I’ll be honest with you, I think in the lecture they called, called machloket, called every argument, but it took me a little bit of research to find that Rav Yaakov Emdin’s commentary was not on that verse or that part of the Mishnah Avot, but it was 4.11, this aknisiyah shehi l’shem shumayim.

And Rav Akom Emdin comments on the teaching in Pirkei Avot. And he interprets this to refer to Christianity and Islam, who have emerged from us and built their altars on the foundation of our divine religion. Compared with the nations of the world who preceded them, who did not recognize God, their gathering, their kinesiot, is considered for the sake of heaven. He places all three faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam into one category by referring to the three us, the three of us, l’shaloshtam.

He talks about the three datot ha-elohit. It is amazing to me that you have a – Rav Achum Emden is a powerful rabbinic authority, and he saw Pirkei Avot as an argument that is for eternity or for a long time was between the three religions of Abraham. And I had never heard that before, but it is, you know, when this time of year comes, there’s a lot of memes going around that say to those who claim that the Jews are colonizers, that Jesus actually was a Jew, and he was born in Bethlehem.

There’s a lot of that going on. But the flip part of that is that we Jews, at this time of year, and we look to what Judaism spawned, and what our tradition spawned, and it spawned Christianity, and it spawned Islam. And you have this Rav Yaakov Erendon who talks about that the arguments that we’re having have the potential not only to last long, But ultimately, I would hope to potentially be resolved. I had never heard of this Yubav Yakov Emdin before.

31:34 AM Neither have I. That was a great source. This was great. I’m happy, I’m sorry that I didn’t listen to those classes because they sound amazing. This was really interesting, and again, you know, we talk about Torah, we talk about Jewish history, but we’re really talking about today. So, thank you, Jeffrey. Next week, this week, Chazak, Chazak v’Nitzchazek, we finish the book of Breshit. And next week we look forward to starting the Book of Shemot with you. Next week, Thursday, we’re going to do a Lunch and Learn at 1 o’clock.

We can’t wait to see everybody.

32:07 GS Fantastic. And as I promised, we were going to end with Rabbi Dr. Yaakov Nagin, who ended his talk by talking about how actually there is a silver cloud, even in these terrible days, when you look in terms of Judaism and Islam. So with your permission, I’m going to go ahead and play that now. Yes, great.

Acts of Heroism and Unity

32:32 Rabbi Dr. Yakov Nagen He heard about when the massacre began, he realized he had to get there fast. He took his minibus and under very heavy fire, people tried to stop him. He went in, he contacted the people that he was in touch with, he managed to squeeze 30 people into his minibus, and since he’s a Bedouin and knows all the side roads, he drove them out. He drove them out through the side roads, managed to save not only the 30 people there, but led a convoy of cars after him. He saved dozens of lives. And as I told him, when I met him, there’s a phrase, and the Mishnah.

He heard about when the massacre began, he realized he had to get there fast. He took his minibus and under very heavy fire, people tried to stop him. He went in, he contacted the people that he was in touch with, he managed to squeeze 30 people into his minibus, and since he’s a Bedouin and knows all the side roads, he drove them out. He drove them out through the side roads, managed to save not only the 30 people there, but led a convoy of cars after him. He saved dozens of lives. And as I told him, when I met him, there’s a phrase, and the Mishnah.

Says, if you save a life, it’s like you saved the world. They said, you truly are Yusuf al-Sadiq. And I was with him again in the city of Rahat, the imamim of the south, together with a group of Rabbani. We spent a day volunteering together in the municipality of Rahat with Israeli flags everywhere. We packed, half a day we packed food packages for all the refugees of the area from Otef Aza. Then we did a joint study and then we were with Palel together. So yes, the evil is real, it’s there, it’s demonic, but there are other forces and we must know to get our victory in a global world we must know how can we bring reality in a better place in a long process and maybe end with the words the eternal people do not fear a long journey.

34:54 GS And with that, we end this week, and we end the book of Bereshit. So it is a long journey. We do not give up. We continue to learn. We continue to be open. And we look forward to next week, beginning the book of Shabbat Shalom.