parshat pekudei – exodus 38
Join Geoffrey Stern and Rabbi Adam Mintz recorded on Clubhouse. Moses feels obliged to acknowledge the individuals who designed and built the Tabernacle and to provide an exact accounting of all the funds used. We explore the profound place that transparency, accountability and most of all; honoring one’s sources, play in Jewish tradition, culture and in light of the reckoning that lies ahead for the State of Israel and the Jewish People… will play in the future of our people.
Sefaria Source Sheet: www.sefaria.org/sheets/550971
Transcript:
Welcome to Madlik. My name is Geoffrey Stern and at Madlik we light a spark or shed some light on a Jewish Text or Tradition. Along with Rabbi Adam Mintz we host Madlik Disruptive Torah on clubhouse every Thursday and share it as the Madlik podcast on your favorite platform. This week’s parsha is Pekudei. We explore the profound place that transparency, accountability and most of all; honoring one’s sources, play in Jewish tradition, our culture and …. in light of the reckoning that lies ahead for the State of Israel and the Jewish People… will play in the future of our people. So join us for Transparency, Accountability and Citation.
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Geoffrey Stern:
Well, Rabbi Adam, welcome back to another exciting week of Madlik Disruptive Torah. This week you outed me. Somebody contacted you and said, do you know where Geoffrey Stern who went to Torah Vodaas, and they were looking to set up our 50th graduation reunion, and you gave them my number, so thank you for that.
1:10 – Adam Mintz:
I gave away your secret.
1:12 – GS:
Talk about revealing sources! So anyway, as I said in the intro, and I must say, I have gone over the parsha every year like everyone else has. And this year, I really saw something that I had never seen before. And as I said, it’s all about honoring one’s sources, honoring one’s predecessors, being true, a reckoning, an accounting. So here we go. We’re in Exodus 38: 21, and it starts by saying, eileh pikudei ha-mishkan. These are the records of the tabernacle. The tabernacle of the pact (מִשְׁכַּ֣ן הָעֵדֻ֔ת ), which were drawn up at Moses’ bidding.
1:57 – GS:
So basically, Moses drew up an accounting of the Mishkan, and that’s what we’re going to be dealing with. And he starts by saying the work of the Levites under the direction of Itamar, son of Aaron the priest, and then he goes now, Now Bezalel, son of Uri son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, had made all that ה’ had commanded Moses; (23) at his side was Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, carver and designer, and embroiderer in blue, purple, and crimson yarns and in fine linen. So the first thing he does in his reckoning, Rabbi, he mentions the people that are other than him that were actually involved.
2:36 – GS:
It’s kind of like an award ceremony where you get up and you say, it wasn’t me. It was all of these talented people. But he did recognize that. And that, I think, is the first takeaway we have to take from this.
2:49 – AM:
Yeah, no, that’s great. And, you know, I saw someone this week who made an interesting point. You know, there were two people who ran the process of building the Mishkan. Why did you need two people? You know, God can do anything. He could have done it with just one person. But the answer is that cooperation is an important lesson we have to learn, that two people should be able to work together. I like that idea.
3:15 – GS:
So cooperation, but I think as we’re gonna see, also oversight, oversight. So, it goes on in verse 24 and it says, all the gold that was used for the work, in all the work of the sanctuary, the elevation offering of gold came to 29 talents. You know, you talk about quality, now we’re quantifying everything. The silver of those of the community who were recorded came to 100 talents and 1,775 shekels by the sanctuary rate, a half shekel by the sanctuary rate for each one who was entered in the records from the age of 20 years up, 603,550 men.
4:01 – GS:
This, Rabbi, is a real accounting. Moses has rolled up his sleeves, he’s put on his visor, he’s wet his fingers, he’s going through the journals, and he’s giving an exact accounting of where all the money came from and where it went to. Amazing, isn’t it?
4:19 – AM:
Amazing. It’s absolutely amazing, yes.
4:22 – GS:
So, he goes on and, you know, again, we’ve been doing this (discussing the Tabernacle and the materials used in it) for a few weeks, so I’m skipping a few verses, but on 29 it says, the copper from the Elevation Offering came to 70 talents and 2,400 shekels. He’s not missing a beat. It’s the gold, it’s the silver, it’s the copper, and he talks about where it was used, so forth and so on. So, as if it’s not clear enough that what he’s giving is an accounting, the Midrash Tanchuma says as follows, quoting our verse, these are the Pekudei, the records of the tabernacle, it says whatever Moses did, he did through others.
5:02 – GS:
It says what I said earlier. He gives credit to the other people. These are the records, the work of the Levites by means of Itamar. He only did the accounting after the work on the tabernacle was finished, so this is not a before, it is not during, it’s after the fact. It’s the day after. He said to them, Come and let me make an accounting before you. All Israel gathered while he sat and made calculations. Here’s the giveaway though. He forgot 1,775 shekels of which he had made hooks for pillars so not only did he do the accounting but the midrash points out that he actually had forgotten something.
5:56 – GS:
He said to them, and of the 1,775 shekels that made the pillars, at that time Israel was mollified over the building of the temple, and he brought it about for him. It was because he himself sat down and mollified them. So, how you translate the word that is mollified, it says, I’m trying to think, it’s palila (פייסן). The point is that Moses found something, the people of Israel saw him looking over the accounting. [It goes on] Why did they make an accounting with him when the Holy One trusted him?
6:36 – GS:
It’s because that he, simply that Moses had heard that the Israelites were speaking behind his back. So, you have this beautiful Midrash Tanchuma that goes back and forth and kind of flushes out a story, a narrative, where either people were talking behind his back, or that Moses himself had forgotten something, and that he said, let’s go ahead and make a chezbon together. The nitpayasu seems to be this word that somehow he realized he had to drill down to the details. But this is, you know, we’ve read so many midrashic stories about Moses, and many of them are critical of him.
7:21 – GS:
Here, it’s really in the text. I mean, something precipitated that Moses had to make this accounting. There’s no question of it. Clearly, the midrash does a great job in flushing out a fascinating, dramatic, intriguing story. What do you think?
7:38 – AM:
I think it’s great. You know, it’s interesting because when you read the text this week, there’s not very much drama in the text. And that’s why it’s amazing with the midrash adds the drama that the text doesn’t have.
7:52 – GS:
You have to look at the Sefaria source sheet, because it goes on and it says, what were they saying? What were the children of Israel saying behind Moses’ back? So, Rabbi Isaac said, remember Rabbi Isaac? He did the first commentary on the whole Torah. He talked about why does it begin in Bereshit (See first Rashi on Bereshit) He says they were saying in his favor. So, some people were talking about Moses behind his back in a favorable manner. Blessed is she who bore this man. All his day the Holy One speaks with him, all his days he genuinely belongs to the Holy One, and all the people would rise and stare after him.
8:32 – GS:
But Rav Hamas said they were saying it to his ganai, they were saying it to his shame. Look at that fat neck; Look at the fat thighs Moses is eating from what belongs to Jews and drinking from what belongs to Jews. For everything he possesses comes from the Jews. Then an associate of his would reply: Would you not want a person in charge of the work on the tabernacle to be wealthy? As soon as Moses heard that, he said to them, By your life, b’chayeichem, after the temple is finished, I am making an accounting with you. Thus it is said, These are the records of the tabernacle.
9:49 – GS:
So according to this midrash, but I would argue the text is pretty clear, you cannot read this any way other than to say it is an accounting. You can discuss why there was an accounting, but clearly there was an accounting, and there were two features to the accounting that are important. One, he gives recognition to the people who did the actual work and made the contribution in terms of their creativity. And two, he takes account of all of the money that came in, and he takes that all very seriously. What an amazing lesson that is in leadership.
9:55 – AM:
That is an amazing lesson. I mean, it shows you that he wasn’t just a religious leader. He wasn’t only what you would call a Rosh Hayeshiva, right? He was someone who really cared to make sure that everything was honest and everything was organized and everything was accounted for. That’s really amazing, isn’t it?
10:18 – GS:
It is, and of course. You know, every week we’ve tried to tie what we’re talking about to the day, to the moment, and I already dropped the line “the day after”. He did this after the Mishkan was completed. But clearly, he had people that were on his side. There were people against him. He felt he had to do the reckoning. I think that the lesson here, if you want to take a Jewish lesson from our parasha, is there has to be an accounting the day after. And if we’re talking about what happened on October 7th, This is the parsha that says, it’s a mitzvah (commandment), you have to do it.
10:58 – GS:
And you have to do it for both the people that think highly of you and those that think less of you. It’s got to be done, you’ve got to recognize the heroes, you’ve got to recognize those who faltered. That is called Jewish learning. And so as long as we’re talking about Jewish learning, really, and I said it in the title, we’re gonna talk about citation. Jews love to quote. Jews love to give recognition to prior sources. Jews love to do exactly what Moses gives us here an example of, which is recognizing and giving recognition to those who came before us, for good or bad, but literally making an accounting.
11:45 – GS:
So in Pirkei Avot 6.6, it talks about “greater is learning Torah than priesthood”. And this is a very long paragraph. I suggest you all look it up in the Sefaria source sheet, and it talks about 48 things that are important for learning. And obviously, it brings the obvious ones, you should learn with awe and fear, you should be critical, give and take with friends, have a minimum of sleep, accept suffering, make fences around the words, but at the very end, even after it says, who makes his teacher wiser, who is exact in what he has learned, then it says, and “who says a thing in the name of who said it” V’ha-omer davar b’shem omro, thus you have learnt. Everyone who says a thing in the name of him who said it, brings deliverance into the world. V’ha-omer davar b’shem omro, mevi gu’ulat lo’olam, and where does he learn it? He learns it from Esther, who recounted to the king Mordecai’s name. In Chulan 104b, it says, what it asks, it’s talking actually about something fascinating, whether you can have milk and poultry, milk and something that’s not a mammal, a bird. And it says, it’s important that you identify your source, whoever reports a statement in the name of the one who said it, brings redemption to the world.
13:24 – GS:
And again, here it flushes it out a little bit more. We’re about to read the Megillah, with respect to the incident of Bigtan and Teresh, and Esther reported it to the king in the name of Mordecai. So that’s in Esther, Chapter 2, 22, you recall. In chapter 1, Mordecai overhears these guys, Bigthan and Teresh, plotting a revolt against Ahasverosh, the king, and he reports it to Ahasverosh, and many months later, Achashverosh is having trouble to sleep, And he says, there must be something I should have done that I haven’t done.
14:12 – GS:
And he is reminded of what that Mordechai was the one who gave him this report, and ultimately that leads to the redemption of the Jewish people. And so because Esther reminded Achashverosh of the source of the tale on Bigtan and Teresh, Geulah was brought, the redemption was brought. Fascinating story, fascinating tie-in to Purim, but is or is not, Rabbi, quoting one’s sources something that is intrinsic, inherit the crux of what we do when we learn Torah?
14:58 – AM:
That is right. Now I mean what you’re really asking is isn’t it obvious that that’s so what do you why do you need the story from Esther and I think the answer is because it’s just it kind of solidifies something that we know already it’s that’s why it’s such a wonderful story, such a wonderful Midrash, it’s actually in the Talmud, in Masechet Megilla, because, you know, it shows you that Esther at that moment, when the Jewish people, where their future was uncertain, everyone was going to be destroyed. And what did Esther do? She made sure to give credit to Mordechai. I always loved that Midrash.
15:43 – GS:
What’s amazing to me is it’s used, as you could see from Pirkei Avot, and really as it’s used by students of the Talmud as the kind of mandate to quote one’s sources in terms of textual sources, but in Esther’s case, she’s not really quoting a textual source. She’s involved in politics, in diplomacy, in statecraft, and all she is doing is reminding Ahasuerus who his allies are, who supported him. That, to me, reading it in 2024, was fascinating.
16:27 – AM:
I agree with you. That’s a great midrash. Thank you for sharing that with everybody. That’s a great midrash.
16:32 – GS:
So, the other thing is, and a lot of the sources that we’re going to look at as we move forward, are from an amazing article written by a scholar, Michael Marmur (Associate Professor of Jewish Theology at HUC-JIR/Jerusalem), and it’s called Why Jews Quote. And we’ll get to it in a second, but trust me, a lot of the sources that I have come from him, but he points out something fascinating. Rabbi, a second ago you said that the last source, but maybe the main source of this, is in the Talmud in Megillah. And there it says, and Rabbi Eliezer further said, that Rabbi Hanina said, whoever reports a saying in the name who said it, brings redemption to the world.
17:17 – GS:
And he goes on and repeats exactly verbatim what we’ve learned in Hulin and what we’ve learned in Pirkei Avot. This Michael Marmur points out something fascinating, that when it says it in Avot, and when it says it in Hulin, it doesn’t attribute it to anybody. It makes it sound like it’s just common knowledge. Only in Megillah does it say that Rabbali Hanina said, so here we have an edict that says you have to quote things in their source, and only in one place is it actually attributed to somebody.
17:53 – AM
I love that! I didn’t know that. That’s a great little—yeah, that’s great. I love it.
17:58 – GS:
So what his point is, is just beware of quotation. I mean, we’ve discussed this many times, Rabbi, when the rabbis will create a rule and they’ll pin it on a verse, it’s called an asmachta, they literally hook it on, lean it on. Quotation can be used in many different ways. For Jews, quotation is a way of expressing one’s originality. If we do anything on Madlik, is we always quote sources. Hopefully, once in a while, we put them together in an innovative way. But if Madlik is an example of anything, especially vis-a-vis our source sheets, it’s quoting.
18:45 – GS:
It’s using texts. It’s saying it’s nothing to come up with an idea on your own. The genius of Jewish learning is to find a text that already includes a kernel of your idea. I just think it’s so appropriate. It’s really the crux of Jewish learning, I think. If somebody comes and says something totally new and doesn’t quote a verse, doesn’t refer it to the Talmud, you go, well, that’s nice, but that’s not Jewish learning.
19:15 – AM: I mean, that’s right. You see, you know, usually you think that what we like to do is we like to have an idea that’s original. But Judaism doesn’t really have that. I mean, you want to be creative, but you’re smartest if you say something that’s already been said. I have that in my Talmud class in Maharat. You know, they’re most happy, they ask a question and I say, ah, that’s a brilliant question. Tosefot asked that question. Meaning if the question wasn’t asked by anybody before, so then you ask whether it’s a good question. But if Tosefot asked that question, then it’s a real question.
19:56 – GS:
But again, it never stymied originality, and if you think in terms of science, science and all great knowledge is built on the shoulders of one’s predecessors. It doesn’t come from nowhere. Even if you do a paradigm shift and you go in a different direction, it’s all built on prior learning. It’s done based on what Moses did at the beginning of the portion. It’s taking into account facts, experience, and that I think is part and parcel of Jewish learning. I want to just keep going.
20:38 – GS:
The Mishnah in Ediyot asks a wonderful question. It says, why do they record the opinion of a single person among the many when the halacha must be according to the opinion of the many? Why do we bother? You know, Rabbi, if we took all the opinions from the Talmud that we don’t follow in the halacha, we would probably shorten it by 80%.
21:04 – AM: We’d save ourselves a lot of trouble, wouldn’t we?
21:07 – GS:
So what is the answer? It says, so that if a court prefers the opinion of the single person, it may depend on him. V’yismoch alav. And it also, Rabbi Judah said, why do they record the opinion of a single person? So that if a man shall say, thus I have received the tradition, it may be said to him according to the refuted opinion of that individual, did you hear it? So it gives two fascinating answers. Number one, it says there might be a court in the future that might rule like the minority or even more than the minority.
21:51 – GS:
Individual opinion, some mutation of thought might be necessary sometime in the future. So the court which represents a majority will be able to cull that minority opinion. It’s just brilliant and it comes up even until today that it’s so important when the Supreme Court makes an opinion, it records the minority opinion because you never know. I mean that is so powerful and then the other thing it says is so that if somebody (an outlier) says something that seems a little odd and a little strange, we shouldn’t snuff him out because he can say, K’divrei ish poloni shamata. It creates a context and an environment that we invite people to have differing opinions.
22:39 – AM: That’s great. That’s really nice. I mean, so, you know, so there’s quoting and there’s different opinions and there’s minority opinions, meaning there’s the, the rich, I think Geoffrey, what this rabbi Marmur is really saying is that the richness of our tradition is in the ability to quote different opinions.
23:04 – GS:
It certainly is an important, critical part. We like to say every week, this is the most important thing, but anyone who studies Torah knows opinions matter. Quoting one’s opinions, valuing opinions that you disagree with, that’s what it’s all about. So, let’s go on. We only have a limited time and we have all these opinions! In Horayot 14a:1-2 it says: “Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi’s son said to him: Who are these Sages whose water we drink but whose names we do not mention? Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi said to him: They are people who sought to abolish your honor and the honor of your father’s house.” There’s a book called As a Driven Leif by Milton Steinberg.which I’m sure you’ve al read. If you haven’t You should buy it and get it, but there is a tradition that whenever it says in the Talmud, others say it is referring to an individual who got named Elisha Ben Abuya. Or his student, Rabbi Meir.
24:12 – GS:
But the point was, Elisha Ben-Abuya was the showcase of a heretic. He ripped the roots out of all of Jewish tradition, but he also happened to be brilliant, and he also happened to have amazing teachings. So the rabbis were in a quandary. How do we quote him and not give him credit? So, they call it, they say, achirim omrim, (“others” say”) which is a beautiful thing. If it truly does refer to Alisha Ben-Abuya, here is a way that we’re quoting somebody, we’re giving him credit by not giving him credit, which gives him credit!
24:52 – GS:
It’s great, isn’t it? A lasting impression. Maybe then you can start quoting him by name. But Rabbi, this is just showing how important the stakes are, and how important it is to not lose that opinion, even if we figure for some reason or another, we can’t exactly say the name, but we have to say, achirim omrim. The Jerusalem Talmud in Shkalim…. I was reading the Jerusalem Talmud in Shkalim last week as I was looking for material on the Shekel, and I came across the following paragraphs.
25:45 – GS:
It says, If a Sage’s pronouncement in matters of practice is mentioned in this world, the latter’s lips whisper with him in the grave. If you quote a sage after he has passed away or she has passed away, it gives life to them after they have passed away. Giddul said anybody who quotes somebody should consider it as if the author of the quote stood before him. These are such powerful, emotion-laden parts of our tradition that are in, I would say, this is so core to what it means to be Jewish.
26:27 – GS:
It transcends religion. It transcends the generations. We, if you look at music today in Israel, it’s full of (Biblical and Rabbinic) quotes. If you look at our prayers, especially the liturgy on the high holidays, where we pray by quoting (Biblical verses). It is intrinsic to who we are, and I think it’s not superficial. It goes very deep.
26:50 – AM: Very, very deep. Again, all of these examples show you that, you know, the different opinions. I want to just go back for a second. The idea that you mentioned the minority opinion is a great idea. You know, today we live in a politically, very partisan world in which you don’t listen to the other opinion. My opinion is right and the other opinion, I don’t even want to hear what it is. And you see that the rabbis don’t have that view. They may feel strongly that they’re correct, but they always want to hear the other side.
27:26 – GS: Absolutely. Right, that’s an amazing point, actually.
27:29 – GS:
It is, and it’s so prescient and important for today. So I said a few minutes ago, if you took all the quotes out of the Talmud, it would be 80% less. Guess what? There was a great scholar who did that, and his name, and he’s a hero of everybody, his name was Moses Ben (Maimom): Maimonides. The Rambam, when he wrote Mishneh Torah, he says “instead of arguments, this one claiming such and such, this text will have clear and correct statements based on the judgments that resulted.” He literally took all the minority opinions out, he took all the names out, and that was revolutionary about what he created when he said Mishneh Torah.
28:12 – GS:
It was an absolute paradigm shift, a New Torah. And the Riavid (Rabbi Avraham ben David of Pushkira) amongst many, it’s called the Maimonidean controversy, he said, I’m older than him, I told him he’s got to fix it, he agreed to fix it and he didn’t fix it because he departed through all the authors who were before him, because they brought proof to their words and he didn’t. And what he said basically was he (Maimonides) was a popularizer with a capital P. And he dumbed down the Torah, Maimonides would have argued he had no choice. It was a time when people didn’t have time to learn.
28:52 – GS:
But say what you will, the argument against him is when you popularize our Torah, when you dumb it down, you rob it of everything that we’ve kind of discussed tonight. And I think from tonight’s perspective, we stand with the other side of the Maimonidean controversy. We are arguing that every opinion matters, every dog will have its day, and it is important that we look back today. At the antecedents for the situations that we’re in. We look back to find thinkers who can help us think through the situation that we are.
29:33 – GS:
I want to end with a little snippet from Daniel Gordis’ interview that he had this week with Ari Shavit, {the episode was] called Dumbing Down of Israeli Politics, and I’m going to play it, And then we’re going to end by discussing it very briefly. So here it is.
29:58 – Arie Shavit
“Because of the extremists, because of a kind of, excuse my expression, a kind of dumbing down of Israeli politics, all this Jewish wisdom, you know, when we had nothing, Ben-Gurion, Abba Evan, Begin, you know, they were all giants. Where are they? How is it that Israel didn’t send some amazing 45-year-old brilliant lady to be its face in America today? How come? Look, the danger is, is that they will win the war in Han Unis and we will lose it in Boston. And Boston is more important than Han Unis. I mean, Han Unis is very important, but without Boston. And again, be right, be left, bring your strategy. Be dovish, be hawkish. And the lack of strategy troubles me. And you know, we are, never mind like the first week, but we are months into it.”
30:47 – GS:
So, I just thought that was amazing that he said we’re ignoring the most Jewish thing that we do, we’re ignoring looking back at the giants of the past, but also giving voice to the individuals who have a different perspective today. I think Pekudei, we have to do at this moment exactly what Moses did after the finishing of the Temple. The day after the Mishkan was built, he had to do a Rechning, he had to do a Cheshbon, he had to talk about the individuals, he had to talk about the ideas, he had to know where everything was. This is a marching order. This is so, so powerful.
31:27 – AM: Amazing. This was such a good topic, Geoffrey. We end this week’s Torah reading, Chazak, Chazak v’nitchazek. We should be strong, we should be strong, and we should strengthen one another. What a wonderful and important message, and that was that recording from Gordis, I think, really said a lot. We hope this week brings good news. Shabbat shalom to everybody, and we look forward to seeing everybody next week. Be well. Shabbat shalom.
31:54 – GS:
Next week, a new book, Vayikra. Looking forward to it, Rabbi. Yoichanan!
32:00 – Yochanan (Rav Dud on Clubhouse)
Yes. So you mentioned Elisha Ben Avuyah, and Elisha Ben Avuyah was mentioned one time in Pirkei Avot, in the same chapter you mentioned, in the sixth chapter. But what’s interesting is that in the same paragraph, it says after, don’t look at the kankan, don’t look at the bottle, of wine, but look at the inside. So, I think some people say this was a hint that don’t look at the heretic. Sometimes they, like the Rambam, like Maimonides says, take the truth from whoever said it, even from heretics. So even if Achei Relishe Benavuyo became a heretic, but if he says something that is true and smart, you still take it from him.
32:49 – GS:
Dear listeners, Normally, we don’t include the little pre-game that Rabbi Adam and I have before each episode on Clubhouse. But I wanted to share with you this week’s banter because I got a call from someone from the yeshiva that I went to 50 years ago. And it turns out that I was outed by Rabbi Adams. So the conversation will pick up from there. I hope you enjoy. You don’t have to listen to us on Clubhouse. Listen to us as a podcast. Give us a few stars. Write us a review. But I hope you enjoy this.
33:34 – AM: You know what they said to me? They said, we see that you are friendly with a graduate of ours. I said, how in the world? They don’t know me. I’m friendly with the Rosh Hashiva (of Torah Vodaas). I went to YU with the Rosh Hashiva. So they don’t know me either, and obviously I don’t give them any money, but I’m friendly with the Rosh Hashiva. So they said, we see that you’re friendly with our graduate. I said, who is that? And literally they gave me the name that would come the furthest from my mind. I said, who?
34:08 – GS:
So if you ever doubted that I actually went to Torah Vodaas! And I said, so are you coming to pull my credentials?
34:17 – AM:
So tell me the story. You graduated 50 years ago? Is that what happened?
34:23 – GS: So it would seem. It seems just like yesterday, but I guess it was 50 years ago.
34:28 – AM:
Did you actually graduate Tora Vodaath High School?
34:32 – Multiple Speakers
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. If you come to visit me at my PEF office. I have my Columbia and I have my Torah Vodaath Diplomas on the wall.
34:46 – AM:
Oh, that’s amazing. Now. Did you go from there? Straight to Israel.
34:51 – GS:
No, I went one year to the yeshiva of Long Beach. Yeah, and then I went to Yeshivat Beer Yaakov for two years
34:55 – AM: Oh That was after that. So that was it, so you had one year in Long Beach and then two years in Beer Yaakov, then you came back, and then you went to college or you did something else?
35:10 – GS:
Almost, almost. Rav Shlomo Wolbe from Beer Yaakov asked that I go to see Rav Yitzchak Hutner. And he gave me a letter to give to Rabbi Hutner. I’d love to get that letter. If there’s anybody who is dealing with the archives of Rabbi Yitzhak Hutner, please contact me. So I walk into his office. And I hand him the letter, and I have a feeling the letter said, listen, Rav Hutner, you’re our last chance. This guy is on the way out. It’s up to you. And Rav Hutner didn’t take the bait.
35:49 – GS:
He says to me, listen, right now you’re beyn Hashmoshes. You’re neither day or night. You’re that moment between Shabbat where we don’t know whether it’s Kodesh or Chol. He goes, I’m not gonna entertain your questions or talk to you. He goes, if you wanna go to Columbia, go to Columbia and then come talk to me. So I did go to Columbia, I came back, he still didn’t talk to me! And the directions he gave at his yeshiva was that I could study in the base medrash, but I couldn’t have a chavuta (study partner).
36:19 – AM: Really?
36:20 – GS:
And the Mashkiach there was a guy named Shlomo Carlbach. He was related to the famous Shlomo Carlbach. Yes, he was a wonderful, warm person, and he was very nice to me.
36:34 – AM: He was a cousin or something, right. So, I’m going to tell you about that Shlomo Carlbach who was the Mashkiach who was nice to you. His daughter, her name is Elisheva Carlbach. She is the Salo Baron Professor of Jewish History in Columbia University. Isn’t that a funny thing?
36:55 – GS
She’s amazing. And I’ve read her stuff.
36:56 – AM:
She’s amazing. That’s Shlomo Carlbach’s daughter. Because Sharon is, I know her also, but Sharon is friendly with her because they’ve done exhibitions together. And so she was sitting Shiva for Shlomo Carlbach, and we went to pay a Shiva call. And she told us the story about how her father was the Mashkiach in Chaim Berlin. I never met anybody who knew him. You’re the first person who knew him.
37:25 – GS:
He had a beautiful white beard. He was the most sensitive, warm person you’d ever want to meet. And he just…..
You know, now when you walked out of the office of Rav Yitzchak Hutner, you had to walk backwards. You couldn’t turn your back on Rav Hutner.
AM: How did you know that?
GS: They told me beforehand, but just to make sure, the door, he had to buzz the door open. So if you walked out the wrong way, the door wouldn’t open. And that’s great. Now, what I would like to say, though, is that if you look at Hadar Institute, they are very much into Musar and they are very much into studying Pachad Yitzchak.
38:10 – AM:
They like him. He was he was very brilliant, Rabbi Huttner. He was kind of intimidating looking, wasn’t he?
38:20 – GS:
Absolutely. Now, when I was studying at Beer Yaakov, Rabbi Wolbe took me to see him also, because I had read a book on the Gra, [“Gaon Rabbenu Eliyahu” the Vilna Gaon] and it had mentioned a thinker named Rabbi Menashe from Ilya (1767- 1831). And I was intrigued by him because he was a Maskil before there were Maskilim. He basically, and he tried to make peace between the Gra and the Chabad Rebbe, the first Chabad Rebbe. He was like this renaissance man, but within the tradition. And he says, well, you have to talk to Rav Hutner, and he knows all about him.
39:00 – GS:
And it turns out, at Columbia, there was a professor, Isaac Barzilay, in the Hebrew department, who wrote a book on Menashe Me’elya. So, I mean, it’s like so many things connected, but with Rav Hutner, Rav Wolbe was very close to him, and I think Rav Wolbe just felt that he could help me, in quotes. And it didn’t quite work out, although who knows, you know? And in terms of this 50-year reunion, I don’t know. It could be interesting. I might go. Who knows?
39:35 – AM:
That’s great.
39:37 – GS:
I assume it’s only for men, but I don’t know. Well, I’ll check it out and You know, he asked me if I was in touch with any of my prior classmates and I am with two I mentioned them I probably gave them away and And he asked me who my teachers were, my rebeim were, and a lot of them had either passed away or are not in great shape. But we schmoozed for like 10 minutes. I enjoyed every minute of it. And I don’t know how he found me. I wonder if it was through the podcast, because I said I do a podcast with Rabbi Mintz, and he didn’t acknowledge anything.
40:16 – GS:
So but he was very very open and nice and just all he wanted to do I say you’re looking for a contribution He goes. No, that’s a different call. This is about the Reunion. I would say it was a was a nice point in the week and I have to say you get some credit. Tell me about your week.
40:45 – AM:
My week, I did conversions this morning and that was nice. We actually had a young woman who’s a student in NYU whose father is Jewish and her mother was not, and she came to NYU and she became involved in the Jewish community and the Orthodox community, and she actually converted. We haven’t had a college student in a long time. So that was really sweet and really, really nice.
41:13 – GS:
Now let me ask you something. Do you treat someone whose father was Jewish different than someone who has two parents who are not Jewish?
41:23 – AM:
So I learned from Rabbi Riskin that yes, you know, the truth of the matter is that someone whose father is Jewish, as if they come and they tell me they want to convert, then I would convert them immediately. I mean, I take advantage of the opportunity, so they take a class just to learn more. But if they push me against the wall, I would convert someone whose father was Jewish immediately. But if neither of your parents are Jewish, then I insist that you take a class first. You don’t have to be totally observant, but you have to take the class first.
42:05 – GS:
I mean, my understanding, and I think we’ve talked about this before, but it’s more like coming home. I mean, Rav Riskin, and he quotes, I think, the first Sephardic chief rabbi (of Israel), who’s saying that, you know, clearly what tribe you belong to follows your father. So patrilineal descent stands for something, and therefore it’s different. It is different than someone who has no connection to the Jewish people.
42:31 – AM:
Right. I think that’s absolutely right.
42:33 – Multiple Speakers
I believe in that.
42:35 – GS:
That’s fantastic. Okay, so that was interesting this week.
42:40 – AM:
And I taught, and I, yeah, I mean, you know, conversion is taking up a lot of time. A lot of people are interested in conversion. A lot of people are talking about different kinds of things, you know, in terms of, you know, expanding our conversion, the educational piece, and they want to put it online. So I have a lot of things going on, which is really exciting.
43:01 – GS:
You’re in a growth market. What can I say?
43:03 – AM:
I mean, it’s a good growth market. I mean, it needs to, you know, I need to make sure that I keep my arms around it, but I’m in a growth market. That’s nice. That’s exciting.
43:13 – GS:
That’s wonderful. That’s really, that’s really nice. Rav, dude, Yoichanan, you’re on the bima. Do you have something to say? We were quoting, we were talking about a lot of Rebbis. I’m wondering, did you, did you know Rav Hutner?
43:28 – Yohanan Lowen (https://twitter.com/lowenyochanan cult / abuse/ enslavement survivor, coach, teacher, activist, writer, bibliographer, Torah scholar, author Clubhouse Handle “Rav Dude”)
So let me tell you something.
43:29 – GS:
First of all, you got two minutes, by the way, you got two minutes and then we got to start.
Go.
43:34 – YL
In my Hasidic community, almost no one heard the name of Rav Hutner. But I heard his name. And Rav Manashe from Elya, no one heard the name of Rav Menashe Me’elya, but Menashe Me’elya is one of my favorite topics for years.
43:51 – GS:
Wow. So we have to do an episode on Menashe Me’elya. I would love to do that. I want a movie to be made about him.
44:00 – AM:
What made him so interesting?
44:04 – GS:
So Yoichan will correct me, but basically, he was an Eloi (a genius). And he got married for a few months, he got divorced because it wasn’t the right wife. He was a Rich Girl that he got married to. But basically, he had inventions that he made, in other words, to make life easier. He was like a Benjamin Franklin in that way. He dabbled in textual analysis that was way ahead of his time. He wrote a few sefarim. As I said, he tried to make peace between Chabad and the Gra. He was, and he was friendly with the Gra (who was considered the greatest Rabbinic Genius of the generations).
44:42 – GS:
The Gora respected him. He was like, had this amazing intellect and amazing heart. What’s your sense of him, Yochanan, on Regel Echad (on one foot)?
44:54 – YL
There’s a big controversy about Rav Menashe Me’elya in the Haredi community. There’s a big dispute between the Maskilim and the Haredim about the characteristics of Menashe Me’elya. The Maskilim argued that he was a Maskil and a heretic, and the Haredim argued that that’s a eluy. The first biography of Menashe Me’elya was published by a Maskil, a whole book, called Ben Porat. In the year Toph resh yud hes , 1858.
45:26 – AM:
Wow! You should write a dissertation on this topic.
45:30 – YL
Oh, I can have a series of ten rooms about Menashe Me’elya.
45:34 – GS:
Amazing. Okay, we are going to come back to Menashe Meleah. I’m going to find, if we have to wait for the bracha (Blessings in Deuteroonomy)that talks about Ben-Porath Yosef and Alfe Menashe, we’ll stick it on there. But I think we can find something earlier than that. Yoichan, as always, thank you so much for adding to the conversation.
Sefaria Source Sheet: www.sefaria.org/sheets/550971
Listen to last year’s episode: Temples with no Cloud-Cover
