Tag Archives: yom hazikaron

Ki ba moed – the time has come

parshat emor – leviticus 23

Join Geoffrey Stern and Rabbi Adam Mintz for an afternoon tea and Torah at 2:30 Eastern on Wednesday May 15th on Clubhouse. We usually think of Tishrei and the Fall as a marathon of Jewish holidays, but if you count Rabbinic and Israeli holidays, the seven weeks of Spring win the holiday race with ease. Pesach, Yom Hazikaron, Yom Ha’atzmut, Pesach Sheni, Lag ba’Omer, Yom Yerushalyim and Shavuot. We use Leviticus 23 which has the most complete summary of Biblical holidays to explore the dynamic of adding new holidays and adding meaning to existing holidays.

Sefaria Source sheet: www.sefaria.org/sheets/564540

Transcript:

Welcome to Madlik.  My name is Geoffrey Stern and at Madlik we light a spark or shed some light on a Jewish Text or Tradition.  Along with Rabbi Adam Mintz we host Madlik Disruptive Torah on clubhouse every week and share it as the Madlik podcast on your favorite platform. This week’s parsha is Emor and it has the most complete summary of Biblical holidays. If you count Rabbinic and Israeli holidays, the current seven week period wins the Jewish holiday marathon with ease. Pesach, Yom Hazikaron, Yom Ha’atzmut, Pesach Sheni, Lag ba’Omer, Yom Yerushalyim and Shavuot. Today we explore the dynamic of adding new holidays and adding meaning to existing holidays. Join us for Ki ba Moed – The time has come.

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Well, Rabbi, I sent out the notice of the podcast this week, and my son said you’re missing Yom Yerushalayim. So you can see I put in Yom Yerushalayim. How could I miss a holiday like that?

Adam Mintz:  It’s not coming up for a few weeks, so we’re okay.

GS: Okay. But, you know, really, I think the reason why we complain or we notice so much the high density of holidays between Rosh Hashanah and the end of Sukkot is because they’re biblical, on many we can’t – we have prohibitions.

1:32 – GS:

We can’t ride, we can’t turn on lights, but if you just look at the number of it and if you look at it from the point of view of missing days of school or missing days of work, boy, this time of year is chock full of these holidays. As I was reading the portion, I noticed for the first time in Leviticus 23, you really have the best synopsis of all of the holidays. I had never noticed that before.

2:02 – AM:

Yes, that’s this week’s parasha. Basically, the Torah does this twice. It does it here, and it does it in the Book of Devarim, in the Parsha of Re’ei. And you know, that’s what often happens, is that the Torah repeats itself. The Ten Commandments repeat themselves in Devarim as well. So these are two places the Torah lists all of the holidays.

2:24 – GS:

So I was trying to look this up, but I know because once in a while I get called into Layn, read the Torah in the synagogue, and for some reason I thought that on certain Chagim you read a parsha

2:39 – AM:

that lists all of the Chagim.

AM: So I’ll tell you, on each of the Chagin, I’m sorry, on Pesach and on Sukkot, you read this Torah reading from this week’s parasha. So on the second day of Sukkot, just a few weeks ago, we read these holidays. Sorry, on the second day of Pesach, just a few weeks ago. On Sukkot, on the first days of the holiday, you read this Torah reading.  So this is a very familiar Torah reading.

3:09 – GS:

Okay, so I was correct, but it is really complete and we’ll see in a second that I had always thought that really there were kind of two calendars that had to be merged together because there were the agricultural holidays and then there are holidays like Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur which aren’t really agricultural and as we’ll see in a second, This is one place where, in a masterly way, it kind of combines and has the whole calendar, which might explain why, as you say, we read it on Pesach, so forth and so on.

3:47 – GS:

So let’s go to Leviticus 23.

4:05 – GS:

These are the fixed times which you shall proclaim as sacred occasions. So here comes the first surprise. On six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there shall be a Sabbath of complete rest, a sacred occasion. You shall do no work. So Rabbi, how many sermons have you given where you describe the difference between Shabbat, which comes whether we invite it or not, it comes by the calendar every seven days, and a Moed, which is like an Ohel Moed, it’s a meeting place.

4:38 – GS:

We have to look up at the moon, we’ve got to decide when the new moon is, so forth and so on. And this just puts a puncture in that whole thing. It includes Shabbat in the list of Moedim, and that struck me is strange.

4:51 – AM:

Yes, but Shabbos is the grandfather, is the foundation of all the holidays. Now, you’re right, there’s a difference. Mekadesh ha-Shabbat. God makes Shabbos, because Shabbos happens every seven days. But holidays are Mekadesh Yisrael ha-Hazmanim. Jewish people make the holidays because it’s dependent on the seeing of the new moon. But you’re 100% right.

5:20 – AM:

You could have not included Shabbos, but Shabbos is considered to be part of it. And each of the holidays is called Shabbat Shabbatot, right? So each, and that means a day of rest. Now we’ll talk as you go through these about what the difference is between Shabbos and, you know, and the holidays. Let’s get there. Let’s take one step at a time.

5:40 – GS:

But I’m going to make the case that what you and I just said in terms of the difference between Shabbat and a holiday is true at one level, but from the perspective of this chapter, and it’s a complete chapter in Leviticus where it’s just mapping out the calendar, so to speak, maybe as a rudimentary or trivial perspective of these are days that you’re off from work. These are days that you don’t do certain things.

6:15 – GS:

They are similar, and I think what we have to do maybe is step back a little bit and understand that a day off, a holiday, in and of itself, they do have a similarity, and they are part of the pattern of Jewish life. So, we’re not going to read the whole thing, but it starts by talking about in the first month on the 14th day of the month, it talks about the Feast of Unleavened Bread. You shall eat unleavened bread for seven days.

6:45 – GS:

And then it goes on and speaks to the Israelite people in verse 10. And say to them, when you enter the land that I’m giving you and you reap its harvest, you shall bring the first sheaf of your harvest to the priest. He shall elevate the sheaf before God for acceptance in your behalf. The priest shall elevate it on the day after the Sabbath.” And correct me if I’m wrong, but this is really the Omer, this is the beginning of the counting of the Omer.

7:17 – GS:

It says, until that very day, until you have brought the offering of your God, you shall eat no bread or parts grain or fresh ears. [Which would be an agricultural reason for not eating bread .. hamaskil yavin). This is the new crop. It is a law for all time through the ages. And from the day on which you bring the sheaf of elevation offering the day after the Shabbat, you shall count off seven weeks. So here I forgot to mention that we are counting the Omer, which you could also say is kind of quasi-calendrical holidaying, if you will, but the point is that it ties Pesach to Shavuot, which we always knew there was a connection, but it ties it from the perspective of the first…

7:56 – AM:

The second day of Pesach, Mimacharat HaShabbat, that’s the first day of the counting of the Omer. At the second Seder, you start counting the Omer, because that’s when they gave this sacrifice. In Israel, there’s only one day of festival, so on the day after the first day of festival, they used to bring this special sacrifice.

8:18 – GS:

And of course, the fact that it says Memacharat HaShabbat speaks to the point you made seconds ago, which is that Shabbat festivals are called Shabbat as well. And so that’s how it could say Memacharat HaShabbat, the day after the first day of Pesach, you begin this counting. But again, it does connect Pesach to the agricultural calendar as well. And then it goes on in verse 21, you shall hold a celebration.

8:50 – GS:

It shall be a sacred occasion for you. No work. It is a time for throwing your settlements throughout the ages. And when you reap the harvest, you shall not reap all the way to the edges of your field. Field. So again, it mixes in agricultural rules to this kind of description of the agricultural holidays.

9:13 – AM:

Now you do know, I mean, you’ll get there, but Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are included, even though they’re not agricultural.

9:21 – GS:

Absolutely. And where did I miss Shavuot here? It says that you shall count those seven weeks and then you shall bring an offering of new grain. You shall bring from your settlements two loaves of bread. So again, we’ve gone through Pesach, we’ve gone through the counting from the first day of Pesach till Shavuot, and then we get to, as you say, Speak in verse 24, speak to the Israelite people thus, in the seventh month, on the first day of the month you shall celebrate complete rest, a sacred occasion commemorated with loud blasts, so that’s the shofar, you shall not work in your occupations, so that is Rosh Hashanah, which as you say, is really not an agricultural holiday.

10:09 – GS:

Then it says mark the 10th day of this month as the day of atonement, we are all aware of that. And then it says in verse 33, Hashem spoke to Moses saying, say to the Israelite people, on the 15th day of the seventh month, there shall be the feast of booths to Hashem to last seven days. The first day shall be a sacred occasion. You shall not work at your occupations. Seven days you shall bring offerings by fire to God.

10:39 – GS:

And the eighth day you shall observe a sacred occasion, bring an offering to fire to God. It is a solemn gathering. We talked about atzeret in a previous podcast. And then it concludes, these are the set times of God that you shall celebrate as sacred occasions, bringing offering by fire, and you would think that we’re finished. But, in verse 39, it kind of starts again, and it says, Mark, on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the yield of your land and you shall observe the festival of God seven days, a complete rest on the first day.

11:21 – GS:

We’ve done this already. On the first day you shall take the product of Hadar. So this is the palm banches, the bows of leafy. This is the arba minim, the etrog and the lulav, and you shall observe it as a festival of God for seven days, and in verse 42 it says you shall live in booths seven days, all citizens in Israel shall live in booths. In order, and here’s the key, in order that future generations may hold that I made the Israelite people live in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I, your God, so Moses declared to the Israelites the set times of Hashem.

12:05 – GS:

So, it does seem, and of course if you go to theTorah.com, you will see that in the textual critical higher criticism academics will look at this last paragraph beginning in 39 and say, why does it repeat over what it has already said about the ending of Sukkot, and their argument is that the editor is trying to make this wonderful not only catalog and travelogue through the calendar of the annual calendar, but he or she is also trying to take agricultural holidays and integrate them into the Rosh Hashanah and the Yom Kippur, and take Sukkot, which is putting these booths out in the field during the time of harvest, and connect it to Yetziat Mitzrayim, to leaving Egypt.

13:06 – GS:

And I, as I always will say, is you don’t have to be a higher biblical critic to notice, number one, what is happening here, and to ask yourself, what is the Torah doing? And so that’s kind of the first question I want to have is what do you think is happening here when it repeats it over and all of a sudden it gives a reason for this sitting in booths that gives new meaning to it.

13:37 – AM:

So, I think that there are two aspects of each of these holidays. One is the agricultural aspect and one is that we should remember that God, that the Jews were in booths when they left Egypt. One is the historical and one is the agricultural. And you see it in Sukkot because the Torah repeats the holiday twice. Once the agricultural and once the historical.

14:01 – GS:

And I think, in a sense, you’re agreeing with me to say that you don’t have to be a higher biblical critic to see that the text is trying to take us somewhere. Whoever wrote the text, whatever the tradition of the Mesora, it’s clear that when we repeat something over in Leviticus that maybe is going to be also put in Devarim, there’s a goal, there’s a motivation. And I think from that perspective, as you said a second ago, what they’re trying to do is take agricultural holidays that might have even been preexistent.

14:39 – GS:

It’s clear that when you harvest, you have to be in the fields day in and day out. You want to make sure that you harvest before the first rain. You don’t want to leave any time for travel. And it’s also pretty clear that every culture has a Thanksgiving type of celebration when the harvest is over. It’s so natural, hazorim bedima b’rina yiktzaru, you sow in tears and hard labor and you reap in joy.

15:10 – GS:

So, that is obvious, but I think what our text does for us is now bring it into the historical context. And the biblical critics can say, what do you mean they dwelt in sukkot, in booths, when Bilaam cursed the Jewish people, he said, Mah Tovu Ohalecha Yaakov,  we only have tents, we don’t have booths. But the point is, that’s exactly the point. It’s trying to make a connection. It’s trying to give new meaning to an existing holiday, for a new generation, for history going forward.

15:45 – GS:

And I think that is important to recognize, because ultimately, at the end of the day, when we talk about holidays, we have to admit that holidays have different, multiple meanings. They are complex. And they also have meanings that change over time and are different to different generations and different times in history. And I think that is clear from this text.

16:12 – AM:

You know this clear from this text what about in the Hagaddah when we say in every generation we have to see ourselves is that we left Egypt right is it not the same thing that we need to take the historical and we need to make it modern or contemporary for every generation I think that makes exactly your point

16:59 – GS:

absolutely but here it’s a pasuk! When I was preparing for last week’s discussion on Yom Hazikaron. I did a search, I started looking, I knew from my yeshiva days that there was controversy regarding making new holidays, making Yom Hatzma’ut, Independence Day, into a new holiday. And you know, there are halachic implications. On certain days, you say tachanun, you request God to accept your teshuvah. On happy occasions, you don’t say tachanun. On some days, you say half hallel. On some days, you say full hallel.

17:32 – GS:

So when I grew up, that was the big question about Yom Ha’atzmuth. Do you say tachanun today? Do you say hallel today? So, these have halachic implications. I did a search and I came across this Peninei Halacha. Peninei Halacha is in Sefaria. It’s written by Eliezer Melamed. Who’s a rabbi..

17:58 – AM:

A rabbi who’s living now. He lives in a community on the West Bank called Har Bacha, but he’s contemporary. He’s modern. He’s 60 years old. He’s part of this generation.

18:09 – GS:

He is at 16 volumes and literally it is used to bring understanding, he quotes Sephardic customs, Ashkenazi customs. So, I looked him up and we’re gonna read a little bit, I don’t know if you would put this in the category of a teshuva, responsa literature, but we’re going to read a little bit from him apropos of how do you make a new holiday? And are you allowed to make a new holiday? And it is appropriate.

18:40 – GS:

So he writes, there is a mitzvah to establish a holiday of rejoicing and praising God on a day when the Jewish people were saved. It was on this basis that the sages established Purim and Hanukkah as permanent holidays. Even though one may not add mitzvot to the Torah, so here there’s this This straw dummy out there, someone would argue that you can’t make new holidays, and he is coming to create an argument explaining how we are, in fact, not only allowed, but sometimes commanded to make a new holiday.

19:18 – GS:

And he uses a Talmudic law of exegesis called a Kal Vachomer to prove that yes, you can make a new holiday and since the law of exegesis is biblical, he argues, you can almost say it is biblical. So, what he says is that Purim is a biblical holiday since the rabbis created it. The exact things that you do on it might not be biblical, but that you have to have a holiday celebrating the redemption of the Jews of Persia, that you can definitely have.

20:00 – GS:

And the same thing goes for Hanukkah. He says, many Jewish communities throughout the ages kept this mitzvah, instituting days of joy in commemoration of miracles that they experienced. Many of them, including the word Purim, were naming these days, like Purim Frankfurt and Purim Tiberius. I had never known that. I had always done around Thanksgiving research to see. I knew there was a concept of Sudat Hoda’ah, and here I finally found it, and it’s according to this rabbi, it’s based in law.

20:37 – AM:

That is fascinating. Wow. And I just want to tell you that this Pnei Halacha is studied in all the daati leumi, the religious liberal high schools in Israel that are part of the state. They study this book, Pnei Halacha.

20:54 – GS:

So this is the rule. And that’s what makes it so fascinating. And I suggest that all of you look at the source notes and read it in full. Because again, you always hear me say the expression, when we see halacha being made in front of our eyes, this is one of those examples. And you can only just imagine in your mind that he is making an argument against a really large population, the Haredim for sure, who would argue, no, no, we have enough holidays, you can’t just go about making new holidays whenever you want.

21:32 – GS:

So, he makes that argument, but where I really became fascinated was when he moved to Yom Hazikaron, the day that we talked about last week with Menachem Bombach in terms of the Haredim, but here he starts by saying, from a halachic standpoint, there is no need to institute a general memorial day for the holy soldiers who were killed in battle. And typically, after you read an argument like this, you’d expect the “but” to follow, but we do it anyway.

22:07 – GS:

He takes a while to get to that “but” So now he’s on the other side of the debating table, if you will. And he’s now going to make an argument for not creating a holiday or commemoration for our fallen soldiers. He says, rather, one should do what the Jewish people have always done for any Jew who dies. On the Yortzeit, a memorial prayer is recited. The deceased son or relatives recite Kaddish, they study Torah, give charity.

22:40 – GS:

Those who go beyond this hold a full memorial service with Torah lectures to elevate the deceit soul, like we do for my dad once a year. We have fought many wars throughout our long history, often losing more soldiers in one war than the IDF has lost in all of its battles combined. Nevertheless, the Sages never instituted a Memorial Day for those killed in battle. When we were victorious, we celebrated, and when we lost, we mourned individually.

23:14 – GS:

There is something bothering him here about Yom Hazikaron, about changing the way we mourn, and it almost reminded me at the beginning of the parasha where it talks about not ripping out your hair and not doing tattoos. Don’t mourn the way the non-Jews mourn. But he goes on, the only tragedy for which the sages institute public mourning, and then he goes on to talk about a Tisha B’Av, and then he says, oh, and you may raise the question about the fast of Gedalia, it too was instituted because of the destruction of the temple, and he argues that the destruction of the temple is totally different because it was a National catastrophe , universal, it was so intimately involved with the Jewish people.

24:05 – GS:

But he’s having a problem with Yom HaZikaron, and that too is fascinating.

24:10 – AM:

Yeah, that is fascinating. Like, like, like, what’s the basis? Like, where does it come from You know, that’s always that’s always interesting when you read these things. The halachic, you know, when you want it, when you want to source everything in halacha, sometimes it just doesn’t work so well, right? Being sometimes there just is no source in halacha. And what do you do then?

24:36 – GS:

Well, it’s a little bit like a litmus test, a little bit like a Rorschach Ink Blot. We all see our own ideology, our own feelings, and we come to our own conclusions. But thank the Lord he actually explains what’s on his mind, what’s bothering him. He says, sadly, people who lack faith, who do not understand the Jewish people’s past or its mission, have seized control of Israel’s media and cultural life. In the beginning, the secularists still possessed an inkling of Judaism, based on what they heard in their parents’ home.

25:14 – GS:

But over time, alienation from Torah values took its toll, and they turned Yom Hazikaron into a day of weakness and defeatist. V’hem hafchu et Yom Hazikaron liyom shel chalusha v’tvoshtanut. It’s like, and “What do you really think?”

25:37 – GS:

Now he’s coming across very strong, and this is a, I was thinking if we had time to bring it up last week, but this is another, you know, this is a holiday that has stratified the population in Israel. Of course. This is not an argument that the Haredim are bringing up. They would argue something else, but what he’s saying, and as you say he represents religious Zionism in Israel, he brings up this thing of weakness and defeatism.

26:06 – GS:

Instead of honoring the memories of the fallen, trying to understand the essence of the nation of Israel and investing meaning into the soldiers’ self-sacrifice, they emphasize pain, despair, and destruction, portraying the deaths of these soldiers as meaningless. He’s really projecting a lot onto the secularists. They appear to be honoring the fallen, but in reality, there is no greater affront to the honor of these martyrs than the inappropriate character that these people have attached to Yom HaZikaron.

26:41 – GS:

The fundamental flaw in their approach is their disregard for the Jewish national destiny for whose sake the soldiers sacrificed their life. So, you can read the rest of this when going to the notes, but I think it’s safe to say that what the philosophical approach that he’s coming from is that he does see these soldiers as being part of an age-old tradition of being moser nefesh, of giving their lives for a higher meaning.

27:18 – GS:

He talks a little bit less that how can you mourn them when they have eternal life. They have given up a temporal life for eternal life. We’ve spoken about this in the most recent episodes that we’ve had.

27:55 – AM:

That is a remarkable thing that you found. I want to just say something. That’s remarkable. You know, last week, we had Menachem Bumbach, who really talked about how the Haredim embrace Yom Hazikarot, or how they need to embrace Yom Hazikarot. And now you have someone from the religious Zionist community who is suspicious of the secular way of remembering.

28:21 – GS:

Isn’t that remarkable? It is, and they both come down, and this is what really got me thinking. He ultimately comes down and says, look, everybody is commemorating this. We’re going to have to commemorate it too. Ein Poresh min Hatzibor is the word that he uses from the Seder night. You can’t separate yourself from the community. But when you do it, at least think in terms of you’re not mourning a dead soldier, you’re mourning, dare I say, almost celebrating someone who was Moser Nefesh for a higher good.

28:55 – GS:

But it is absolutely fascinating, and again, it ties into the parasha in the sense that we’re giving meaning to our existing holiday, and where does it go from there? And, you know, I was thinking to myself a little bit after last week, you know, the adage, be careful what you wish for. When we want the charedim to start celebrating Yom Hazikaron, and the next step on the slippery slope might be celebrating Chas V’sholem Yom Ha’atzmut, that’s going to impact, they are going to tweak Yom Hazikaron and tweak Yom Ha’atzmut.

29:35 – GS:

To fit their very religious worldview. And I hope that we’re all aware of that. But we’re going to have to do this together. If we’re going to embrace our holidays together, we’re going to have to reinterpret them together as well. I want to end. I have a friend. I believe he’s brilliant. He just started a substack. He made Aliyah during COVID. His name is Joe Schwartz, and he wrote Zionist Reflection on Yom HaShoah, and he argues as follows.

30:13 – GS:

He says, Jewish death is either justified or possesses some universal redemptive significance. For the Christians, we suffer as an enduring witness to our murder of Christ. For the Muslims, we suffer because we reject Muhammad’s prophecy. For traditional Jews, we suffer for our sins and for the sake of sanctifying God’s name. Only one group of people denies that the suffering of the Jews has a redemptive meaning at all, the Zionists.

30:42 – GS:

For us, the Jews suffer only because people mean us harm and because we are unable to defend ourselves, and therefore we must learn to defend ourselves. This seemingly modest, rational demural of the Jews, our bowing out of the economy of suffering into which we have been conscripted, turns out to be one of the most radical revolutions in Western thought. We see all around us this unfathomable to the rest of the world, to Jew and Gentile alike, that we are no longer willing to accept our suffering as the verdict of heaven and humanity, but intend instead to defend ourselves.

31:22 – GS:

B-b-b-but, they sputter, can’t you see that you are guilty, that you are deicides, kafirs, thieves, settler colonists, guilty of apartheid and genocide and countless other inhumane crimes, that you deserve this, all of this and more? To which we Zionists reply, no more guilty than any human being.

No, we will defend ourselves. I just thought it’s fascinating, because again, what he’s arguing for, and he has smicha (Rabbinic Ordination), by the way, what he’s arguing for is that there’s another interpretation.

31:57 – GS:

And the other interpretation is that the Zionists didn’t unintentionally take away some of the theological baggage or underpinnings that we read about in the Teshuvah. But they’re saying a Jew can just commemorate a fallen soldier because we need to defend ourselves. And I thought that was just added another aspect to this conversation, which we wouldn’t be having if it wasn’t for this amazing teshuva.

32:30 – AM:

Amazing. Thank you so much, Geoffrey I’ve been taking these ideas with me to Israel. We’ll talk next week about what we’re going to do next week, Parshat Behar. Shabbat Shalom, everybody. Enjoy this amazing discussion of this period during the year.

32:45 – GS:

Shabbat shalom. Nasia tova to Israel. Can’t wait to hear your impressions.

Sefaria Source Sheet: www.sefaria.org/sheets/564540

Listen to last years episode: Rounding the Corner

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Yom Hazikaron

a conversation with Rabbi Menachem Bombach

Join Geoffrey Stern, Rabbi Adam Mintz and special guest Rabbi Menachem Bombach on Clubhouse. This year Yom Hazikaron; Israeli Memorial Day, will be different for many reasons and from many perspectives. We invite Rabbi Menachem Bombach, a maverick visionary in the Haredi community to join us for a conversation about the meaning, history and halachic significance of this day for Israelis in general and for the ultra-Orthodox in particular.

Link to Netzach Israel website: https://www.mcl.org.il/academy

To support Netzach Israel: https://pefisrael.org/charity/netzach-israel-chinuch-vahachshara

Sefaria source sheet: www.sefaria.org/sheets/563501

Please watch video below:

Transcript:

Welcome to Madlik.  My name is Geoffrey Stern and at Madlik we light a spark or shed some light on a Jewish Text or Tradition.  Along with Rabbi Adam Mintz we host Madlik Disruptive Torah on clubhouse every Thursday night and share it as the Madlik podcast on your favorite platform. This Sunday evening will be Yom Hazikaron, the Israeli Memorial day. It will be different for many reasons and from many perspectives. We are privileged to welcome Rabbi Menachem Bombach, a maverick visionary in the Haredi community to join us for a conversation about the meaning, history and halachic significance of this day for Israelis in general and for the ultra-Orthodox in particular. So join us for Yom Hazikaron – a conversation with Menachem Bombach

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So welcome, Rabbi Adam, and welcome, Menachim Bombach. It’s such a privilege to have you. We were having lunch in Yerushalayim, I don’t know, it seems like three, four weeks ago. I visited two of the Haredi schools that are under Netzach Israel, your organization, where they teach secular studies, they teach math, history, science. And in the girls’ school, I saw pictures of the hostages, which shouldn’t really be a surprise to anybody, but we’re going to learn a little bit more about the challenges in the Haredi community and how radical that was.

1:45 – GS:

I talked to girls’ students who had gone down south and had taught and led youth groups with kids, their age and younger, who had been relocated. And it was their first time. Sometimes you talk about Israelis who have never left the country. These are Haredi young women who had never been exposed to different parts of the country, different types of Israelis. And you are at the forefront of taking the Haredi community and bringing it forward.

2:21 – GS:

So, first of all, Rabbi Bambach, welcome to Madlik Disruptive Torah. And I understand you’re a good friend of Rabbi Adam Mintz as well.

2:30 – MB:

I’m more than a friend. We are like a family. And thank you, Geoffrey, for this great opportunity to be a part of your great and enormous project, podcast.

2:41 – GS:

So, in the source sheet that will be attached to this podcast and on Sefaria, there is a YouTube video. And I had heard about your works and before our first meeting, I stumbled upon it. And it actually relates very much to Yom Hazikaron and the day that on Sunday night, we will observe around the world, really, in solidarity with Israel. And it is a very touching, meaningful video, but more so if you understand the context.

3:19 – GS:

So let me just describe that video, but I definitely welcome everybody to click on the link and watch it on YouTube. It has thousands of views and downloads. And it was a number of years ago. How many years ago was it?

3:34 – Menachem Bombach

Yeah, it’s about six years ago.

3:37 – GS:

six years ago in front of a class of Haredi. They look Hasidic. A lot of them have peyot. And it is on, probably on Yom Hazikaron, which as you will explain shortly, is not a day that is typically commemorated in the Haredi community. And you pass around pictures of Israeli children. There’s one picture of a child lying on his father’s grave. But all of these pictures are different. They have different names associated with them.

4:11 – GS:

And you ask your students to give their associations. And they’re heart-wrenching. These kids associate with these orphans the way you would expect one human being to another. They don’t have a lot of baggage that we adults have, but they had to be given the chance then to come up and express what they were feeling about how it would be for that child to come home and not have a dad. And after each student was given a specific name and picture of a fallen soldier, you said Psalms, you said Tehillim, and each student was supposed to have that particular gave a – face to the losses.

4:58 – GS:

And then they all came up and talked, and it was just so meaningful. But for some of our audience who would not understand why this is not normal, Rabbi, why don’t you give us the context of Yom Hazikaron in the Haredi community before that moment, at that moment, and possibly what it is going to be like next Sunday and Monday.

5:21 – MB:

Yeah, so you described it beautifully. I think it’s the first time I had someone describe the video so brilliantly. I will tell you the story because everybody knows the Haredi community. Because they’re not really a part of the Israeli society and the majority are not sending their kids to the army. So actually, it’s an embarrassing day. It’s not a day, why you should stop and thinking about something that you need to give answer for your kids.

5:53 – MB:

They’re going to ask you tough questions. So, when I started my school, my main mission is to integrate the Haredi society in Israel. So that means that it’s not just about teaching them English, math, science. It’s also about to make them to raise their solidarity toward Israeli society. So once Yom Hazikaron, the Memorial Day, when it came, I said for my staff, listen, we want to do something for our kids and they need to be identified with this terrible day.

6:34 – MB:

So, let’s do something. And it was not easy. It was very tough conversation because some of my staff, it was even not easy to teach them English and math. But then they said, OK, I understand it’s important, but why Zionism? And I said, listen, it’s not about Zionism, it’s about menschlichkeit. It’s about human beings. We need to be united. We are one nation. And then we decided we’re going to do it.

7:03 – MB:

But the story is interesting because U recorded this video.

7:10 – MB:

In Israel, there is a famous journalist, his name is Raviv Drucker, very famous. And he has a project, he has a project in the television, and he came to me one day and said, Menachem, please, I think you’re doing a very important job, and you do something for Am Yisrael. We would like to make a documentary film about you. And I said, no, I have a lot of antagonism in the community. People don’t like what I’m doing.

7:40 – MB:

So, I don’t think it’s a good idea. But then he sent just tomorrow after that. He sent his researcher, Israel Rosner, and Israel came to me and said, Menachem, you should know, I’m telling you, we need to give some hope for the community in Israel. And what you are doing, and this is something that touched my heart very much, because I think very much about the future of Israel. Just imagine that our community is doubling itself each 16 years.

8:12 – MB:

And just now, it’s about 23% of the first grade in Israel are Haredis. If you take also the Arabs, so 50% of the first class in Israel are either Arabs or Haredi. And just since October 7, you understand, that we need to, it’s very important in its agency to push much more and to make everything what we can to integrate the Haredi inside. So, Israel Rosner came and all of a sudden, he came to the ceremony and I didn’t realize that he’s standing because he just came the whole year around.

8:52 – MB:

He came and spoke with the kids, spoke with the staff, And then it becomes a part of the film. And a year after that, someone released. And cut the part of the old film. And it’s become like a viral video all over. I can tell you, it was two years. I joined the Israel parade in Manhattan. And I was always shocked that some people recognize my face just from this movie. So, I’m blessed in some ways that I touched so many souls in Israel.

9:27 – MB:

And this is exactly what we have to do mainly in those days. To make the Haredim much more with solidarity, to take care, to be a part of Israel. And this is why Netzach is exist. This is exactly why Netzach is exist.

9:43 – GS:

So you made the point that really the why it has always been such a difficult day for Haredim is because they’re not in the army. But obviously, and you mentioned this in the video, where you talk to the students and you say, these soldiers fell protecting us so that we could study Torah. So even if you follow the Haredi position, which is they are serving in their front, just as the IDF is serving in its front, it doesn’t make any sense.

10:18 – GS:

That they could not embrace as a partnership. And I’m just wondering if six years ago it was an uncomfortable day. I can only imagine what ambiguity there must be this year. Is there any talk on the street? Do you have any sense of how the Haredi community, and maybe you can’t even talk about them, as a whole, they’re individuals just like every other community, but how will you be commemorating it and how will some of your peers, your friends, your students, what is the variety of ways and is it changing?

11:00 – MB:

You will not believe, but I just got a survey dated before October 7. And it’s a Haredi from Kekar HaShabbat, very famous site, Haredi site. And it was, if I remember, it was for two years ago. And they asked people, when it comes day soon, are you standing or not? So 77% said they are standing.

11:30 – GS:

Let’s explain to our listeners. So what happens on Yom HaZikaron is at sunset on this year, it’ll be Monday night, a siren sounds, the same kind of siren that you would sound, unfortunately, sounds all the time in these days for a red alert. And everybody stands up. If they’re driving a car, they stop the car and they stand by the side of the car. It’s the most powerful and eerie moment. And what you, Rabbi, are saying is that in a recent poll, 77% of Haredi who were polled will mark that observance.

12:12 – MB:

Exactly, and you will not believe the next percentage, 59% said they are standing in the street when there are next settlers.

12:27 – MB:

were next to secularists. So once you are on the street and you see secularists, you will stand just to respect. And I think if you would ask the same question now, after post-October 7, I think the numbers will raise dramatically. And as you mentioned, it’s about, first of all, it’s about gratitude. Plain and simple. Even if there are disagreements about politics or ideology, we all owe a huge debt of the brave of the soldiers who gave their lives for us, Haredim included.

13:02 – MB:

Showing up in Memorial Day, it’s a way to express that gratitude and appreciation. So, it’s very simple. You will not believe, but after it was published all over, so many people in the community I would never expect came to me secretly and quietly and said, wow, you touched my heart so much. You know, everybody understands the Haredim has now access to the internet. It’s not like 20 years ago. The official number speaks about 70% who has access to the internet.

13:36 – MB:

So they use WhatsApp and status sim, all kinds of techniques and media. And you know, those kinds of things becomes very viral inside the community. And I know, but I can tell you something new happens that the last three years, There are many ceremonies from the Haredi communities that also some political members of Knesset joined the last year. And this year, again, Netzach Yehuda is doing something very huge ceremony, but also the first time in Beit Shemesh.

14:10 – MB:

Beit Shemesh, as maybe you know about that, but the last election was two members, Haredi members, who run by themselves as an independence party. And they’re not belonging not to Agudat Israel, not Degel HaTorah, not Shas, just they are part of Netzach. And they asked for the mayor to do something for Yom Hazikaron. You will now believe we have more than 500 people who registered for this event.

14:44 – MB:

The people who are going to come are Haredim, only Haredim.

14:50 – GS:

It’s amazing you mentioned the established political parties, but that raises the issue of leadership. Would you say that most of this is organic, or are there any leaders within the Haredi established community who have the backbone, the foresight, and the vision? Or is this another, it’s a unique situation of the “Rov”, of the community leading the way? How would you characterize it?

15:21 – MB:

I really, you know, it’s, you know, you heard about Likya Aner. I think I also shared the last time when I talked to you. But she asked, it’s very important to understand, she asked for some years ago, for many Haredim, if you are proud to become, to be an Israeli. So, 46% said they absolutely agree with this phrase, we are proud to be Israeli. And then you have 21%, they’re quite agree, and then the rest of them, they’re not agree with them.

15:55 – MB:

But this is a very nice thing because if you’re speaking, about the Haredi who is identified with Israel, it’s absolutely organic. And it comes to bottom up more and more people. As you know, I was also involved very much in the encouragement of Haredim to become a part of the second stage in the army since October 7. And it was fascinating to see that more and more Haredim, they have the courage and they are very proud to take part in this many projects.

16:33 – MB:

So it’s tough, it’s about culture, it’s many barriers, but we can see more and more and more things that, you know, it generates a lot of optimism in the coming years.

16:48 – Adam Mintz:

I have a question, Menachem, going back to the Yom HaZikaron, the experience in the Midrashah. How did the other Rabbanim, your teachers, how did they react to the whole ceremony?

17:03 – MB:

You know, some of them were indifferent. I’m not sure, but that’s why some of the rabbis came to me and said, Menachem, it’s impossible. I’m going to leave now the school. And he was a very significant teacher. He teach Gemara and he loved the place, but he said it’s too much for me. Yeah, everybody reacted differently. But we know leadership is about to influence the community, to influence the kids, the families.

17:36 – MB:

And I want to tell you, no one child left the school since then because of those kinds of actions, right? And I took some risk. I didn’t know if the parents is going to love it, but I never asked them. And I was fascinated. And I was shocked after they just sent me nice messages. We love very much what you do, and we appreciate, thank you for the courage you show us the way. And this, I think, if you are thinking about the pain of Israeli society, and what Israel is suffering from the last few months, I think the normal people in the Haredi community feels ambivalence but uncomfortable, and I think this is something that would really change.

18:25 – MB:

Yoma Zikaron now, I talk to many people, even I have a community, I have a shul. And I do a Misheberach Lechayalei Tzahal in my shul, even it’s very, very affirmed in a conservative shul. And I saw people get out, when I started the Misheberach days, get out from the shul. And I said, listen, this shul is a place respect Jewish soldiers. And we respect Am Yisrael, and who don’t like the place, you can go to find another.

18:56 – MB:

And you will not believe, only two people from 100 people, everybody stays, even though some of them are very conservative, conservative Haredim. So, I think people as individuals, identified the field, they are mentioned, they understand you cannot stay aside. We cannot, you know, be against those noble acts from the soldiers. So, yeah, I want just to share one story. That touched my heart very much after this film was published.

19:35 – MB:

And I want to share with you, because I shared with many times, but I want to share with you because it’s a story that gives a lot of hope of the future of Israelis in Israeli society. It was a day after this film was published, came to me a Chabad guy, and he said, I’m just, you’re Rabbi Bombach, he said, yes, listen, I’m just now coming back 45 minutes from Rehovot just to tell you thank you in my name and my name of my family.

20:07 – MB:

And the story is that he said, I have a grandmother, she’s 87 years old, she lives in a kibbutz, and she hates haredim. She hates haredim, and some of her kids became haredim. And for more than 17 years, she don’t want any relationship with them. Because actually, they lost a child in the army, yeah? You can understand it, and she’s a Holocaust survivor. Very intellectual woman, very special.

20:37 – MB:

And they tried to send mediators and people who can talk to her, but she was very strict. She said, no, no, no. A big no. And last night, that’s what the Chabad guy said. She said for the whole family, she called the whole family to come to the kibbutz. We didn’t know what to expect for. I wasn’t on my way to the United States. My brother was to Bat Yam, to Bar Mitzvah. And we just leave everything, we run, we took our kids, and we just drove so fast just to get in and to see my grandmother.

21:10 – MB:

And then she said, listen, Before I’m going to say something, I would like all of you to watch together with me this film of Yom Hazikaron that you described, Geoffrey. And after they watched the film, she said, I just want to apologize about all those years that we didn’t have any relationship. I just didn’t know there are some Haredim who respect Jewish soldiers. And they cried, and he said, you saved my family.

21:41 – MB:

I have another story. It was a guy, 91 old, Holocaust survivor. He wrote me an email and said, I’m very close to die. And I’m blessed. I thank God that I’m still alive to see the hope that you are bringing from Israel. And I really believe those, even it’s, you know, people say, oh, you’re a 1,300,000 people. And while we are talking, the numbers are growing. So how do you think how you can influence so many people, but we know in terms of numbers and in terms of, you know, of changes and those kinds of things, It changed.

22:28 – MB:

We can now point out of so many influences in many different areas just because we publicly, and we’re not behind anything, just publicly saying what we believe. And I think more and more Haredim have become more and more identified and a part of it.

22:50 – GS:

So, when the war broke out, we all understood how the government had failed, and volunteers, mitnadvim, really filled the gap. And I think for most of our listeners, the face of the haredim were Zakah, the haredim who have traditionally gone and saved body parts and given honor and respect to the those who have died in terrorist attacks and whatever, but were there other things that the Haredi community did?

23:22 – GS:

I’ve heard stories about women just going to support shiva minyanim or shivas in houses. Can you give us a little bit of an insight in other ways that organically the Haredi community has been affected and effected the situation in Israel in the last seven months?

23:42 – MB:

Yes, so actually I was also involved to encourage more haredim to go to the second stage project in the army. That means they get trained for two weeks and then they have the reserve in many, many areas. And we run a very nice and a special campaign. You also, your organization was a part of it and it was very successful in terms of to make more, more numbers because the ratio was 20%. I mean, if you want 2,000 people to volunteer, you have to get 10,000 because not everybody is accepted of many, many reasons.

24:23 – MB:

If you have not, you know, you have any background, many, many, many issues. So we run very nice campaign and it worked nice, but I can tell you I expect it should be more Haredim. But the idea of this project was also about to normalize the uniform. We want very much that Haredim, every Haredi in every city who lives in a Haredi city, the kids and the matures should see more and more people with uniform.

24:56 – MB:

And it worked, but not enough. Yes, but this is where it’s very nice. And I can tell you until now, we have almost thousands of Haredim now because of this project in the army. And we are continue working for this in the coming months. But beside this project, you know, the 10% Haredim is considered more than Haredim. And there’s another 30% considered a heredim with modern touch, and there’s another heredim who is, you know, the conservative heredity, I mean, the majority of silent, and then we have the extreme heredim.

25:37 – MB:

So, what happened since October 7, besides those 40%, the 10%, the 30%, we figured out there is another population that we can call them people who care. People who care, even if they’re not really Israeli, so maybe they don’t know about Israel too much, but they do everything that they can to support everything. They send materials, they visit people, they bring food to the army and to families. It was very nice, but still, I think culture is much stronger than anything else.

26:19 – MB:

Because once it becomes, after two and three months, you know, people go back to the same olam kimina gono’ek, people go back to the same behaviors, the same customs, and that’s why the only way to really make a huge change in the coming years is to teach. I just wrote an article about civic science, that we need to teach those kids civics. They need to be, you don’t know what to be a citizenship in Israel.

26:48 – MB:

And then when they grow, they don’t have any questions about that. It will be natural for them to be identified, to take a part. This is exactly what we are doing in our 20 schools, almost 20 schools, because we believe that in the age of 5, 6, 7, you learn about those values and about obligations, it makes you a different person.

27:15 – GS:

You know, that normally, I think, people from the outside, when they see Haredim or ultra-religious or religious Jews doing something to help someone who’s not of the same mindset or culture, we almost feel there’s a sense of trying to make them religious, trying to be mekarev is the Hebrew word. And I think there’s an organization called Tzohar, I’m sure you’re aware of, that their whole approach is we are here to serve.

27:53 – GS:

And I think, and maybe I’m projecting, I’d love to hear your opinion on this. That during the war when Haredim went out and they volunteered in any way they could, so whether it was meant bringing food to a shiva, I think really they put themselves in a position where they were there just to serve. And as you said, there was an element of hakarat ha-tov, of recognizing and being thankful. There was also a big element of connectiveness It was clear that they benefited as much from going down south and being engaged with people that were different than them.

28:41 – GS:

but trying to help them deal with being relocated and help them deal with keeping up their studies. We gain, we give as much as we get, and we get as much as we give. And I think that potentially could be a paradigm changer where we all really realize that we were killed because we were Jews, we were maimed because we were Jews, and I didn’t, I’ll just put one more thing (into the discussion). I didn’t hear a sense at all of any critique of the (dance) rave that these kids were dancing on Shabbat, they were being mechalel Shabbat (desecrating the Sabbath).

29:22 – GS:

It was so clear the nation was together for the first time. Those are our kids, we are their parents, their brothers. Am I drinking the Kool-Aid or am I right?

29:34 – MB:

You’re absolutely right. You’re absolutely right. I didn’t find any one of those people who tried to convince or to be Mekarev. It comes from simply pure place. And actually, I mean, let’s not forget values like unity, solidarity, and loving your neighbor. These are very cool Jewish values. So commemorating Memorial Day is a great way for the Haredi, that’s exactly what I’m saying. It’s a great way for the Haredi community to show that commitment to those values in action.

30:12 – MB:

I mean, so this is the only way we can do, but there’s a lot of work to do. It’s not a hachmeh (innovation), a huge hachmeh to do those kinds of acts and volunteer just when we’re in the hedges in a very risky position. I think as Jewish people, we understand we are a Jewish nation, we have the same destiny, and we have to do everything that we can to work shoulder to shoulder. And to even, you know, I just explained this morning for a group, we don’t just need to understand the differentiation between pluralism and tolerance.

30:52 – MB:

Pluralism means that you believe there is many existence. Everybody’s, everything is truth. But as an Orthodox, you’re not a pluralism, but you have tolerance. And that’s mean you understand people as different, way and practice and be deaf. Yes as a human being. Yes, fully understanding and fully respected And this is something we can educate even Orthodox kids Geoffrey.

31:18 – AM:

That’s interesting pluralism and tolerance You don’t have to necessarily accept pluralism, but you’re tolerant to other people Pluralism is a philosophy.

31:38 – GS:

Exactly You know, and I think nowadays, when we think of tolerance, we typically want the ultra-religious, and just by that term, they sound so radical, to be tolerant of those who are not. But it really does go both ways. There’s a lot of misunderstanding and hatred I think maybe we could have a whole other podcast, because what they call the elephant in the room is when we have a discussion like this, I’m sure there are some of our listeners who are just scratching their head and saying, how can you possibly be a citizen of a country and not consider yourself a part.

32:14 – GS:

Some of the things that you have actually said need to be explained. It’s so problematic. But I think the end takeaway is, listen, there are belief systems. Secularism is a belief system. Judaism is a belief system. If we are going to progress in this world, we see the power of these belief systems. To do bad, and we have to see the power of them to do good. And to change them, you need leadership like you, Rabbi Menachem, and you need understanding.

32:47 – GS:

And I think that’s what’s so, so very important. We have to respect the backgrounds of each other. These are rich backgrounds, thousand-year-old backgrounds. But that doesn’t mean they can’t be changed. We see change overnight. And ultimately, I suspect that this Yom Hazikaron, you know, I was looking through the laws of mourning. And one of the laws is that you can’t greet the mourner. You have to just sit there and wait for them to speak.

33:18 – GS:

And I think we need less speaking and more just being together in unity. And we all come to Yom HaZikaron, to the State of Israel, to being Jewish in different ways. But a situation like today, on Monday, on Tuesday, is one where we can look in each other’s eyes and just see the pain and share that at the most deeply human level. And I just can’t wait to hear how Yom Hazikaron is different this year, because I think it’s going to have major impact, I believe, on how we go forward.

34:00 – MB:

Yes, so I want to say that I absolutely agree. I will write about and I’ll figure out and I will let you know. But I just want to end with one thing that after the Holocaust, two major movements emerged in the Jewish world, the State of Israel and the Haredi community. They each developed very separately, doing their own thing. But over the time, the paths started to cross and even clash. So now I think we got to figure out a way how to coordinate between them.

34:36 – MB:

And I think there is a huge potential, and we need the right people, we need the right vision, and to put aside those old arguments Then it’s visionary symbol fights. And I think it will happen. It will happen. There is no other choice.

34:52 – AM:

What you’re doing, Rabbi Bambach, is really what we call in America a game changer. And we look forward to things in Israel, unity in Israel, and people coming to understand and to tolerate one another, and these are hard times, but hard times lead to good times, and you’re going to be, Geoffrey asked about leadership, you’re going to be one of the leaders that are going to define what the future of Israel looks like,

35:22 – GS:

Thank you so much for joining. I’m going to put a link in the show notes so that people can discover your organization, a link to the PEF page so people can support the organization, and we look forward to learning with you sometime in the future again. Keep up the amazing work and Shabbat Shalom to everyone. Thank you so much for joining us.

35:45 – AM

Shabbat Shalom. Be well. Bye-bye.

35:46 – MB:

Shabbat Shalom. Thank you.

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